EU suing AZ

[Baileysforchristmas]

Do you think it’s a good idea to sue a non profit vaccine producer in the middle of a pandemic? Especially when it’s in the contract the EU can’t sue for late delivery

www.politico.eu/article/belgium-was-warned-eus-astrazeneca-contract-lacked-teeth-documents/

So why not just give out half of everything AZ delivers in first doses and keep the other half for the second dose? Appointments can just be scheduled as deliveries arrive, since the vaccine keeps for 6 months.

@Aloethere

We are the same, based on reports from AZ the plans are made.

Usually a day or two before delivery the announcement drops from AZ.

It is a few 1000 short it is usually more than 50% short.

But we are supposed to put up and shut up because we as in EU.

..

Even if the courts were to order vaccine supply on specific dates, if the giant glowy bubbly vaccine fermenters aren't producing then it's about as productive as King Cnut trying to turn back the tide. If the vaccine-stuff isn't there then it isn't there.

Agree with you that it seems implausible that this could result in an order against AZ UK (or the Serum Institute, who I think are the other bulk manufacturer).

Hopefully further coverage will shed light. Although I'm not sure to what extent the legal arguments will be in the public domain?

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

This is exactly what is happening at least in my country, but I am constantly reading on here we are not using the supply and stockpiling.

There is no stockpile just second vaccine put aside to ensure that one person receives the required two doses.

I wonder who will star in the movie version

(Too early?)

I also read an article suggesting that the bulk of the Netherland’s supply was going to be superfluous so presumably that will be sent elsewhere: www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/senior-adviser-accused-of-undermining-dutch-vaccine-programme-1.4548159

So it looks like Denmark has over 3.5 million AZ doses that they wom’t be using, why aren’t these doses going to other EU countries

Denmark currently has just over 200,000 vaccines, but is set to receive another 3.5 million under previous agreements, the State Serum Institute told Reuters.

"The government has not yet decided what to do with the purchased AstraZeneca vaccines," the Danish Health Ministry said in an emailed statement to Reuters.

So it’s not just about AZ late deliveries it’s how unwanted doses are redistributed.

I really can’t see what benefit will be gained by the EU by suing AZ. To the poster who said that the EU’s legal team wouldn’t be going ahead unless they have a good case, the final decision will not have been made by the lawyers. Clients do not always do what their lawyers advise and it often comes back to bite them on the backside.

@Baileysforchristmas

So it’s not just about AZ late deliveries it’s how unwanted doses are redistributed.

You keep glossing over the fact that there are repeated late deliveries and the impact that this has on vaccine schedules. Dublincailin works in this area and she is talking about the impact that is having I presume in Ireland. Do you not think that it is appalling that 2 days before deliveries are due it revised downwards usually by more than 50%? Do you understand why some countries have to put 2nd doses aside when this is continually happening? Why some countries are no longer relying on AZ jabs because they are quite frankly unreliable and including them in the vaccine schedule does more than harm than good when you have to cancel 50%+ of appointments that were due to get the AZ vaccine?

You can focus on Denmark if you like but that is one country in the EU. Yes most EU countries are managing to step up their vaccine schedules but is that due to AZ suddenly delivering? It doesn't sound like it.

Why some countries are no longer relying on AZ jabs because they are quite frankly unreliable and including them in the vaccine schedule does more than harm than good when you have to cancel 50%+ of appointments that were due to get the AZ vaccine?

Spot on. I’m in Germany and yes, the vaccine rollout has improved a lot in recent weeks, but not due to AZ. A lot of Pfizer and moderna has arrived, AZ makes up approx. 20% of administered vaccines. There were great hopes AZ would help speed up the process even more, but it’s just too unreliable for it to make a difference.

But where are the doses going? why can’t they go to Ireland, 3.5 millilion sitting there, that could vaccinate the whole of Ireland. There are deliveries just certain countries aren’t receiving them yet? Have the extra doses gone to Germany if so why?

.

The doses aren’t ‘sitting there’. They’re second doses for people who have already had a first jab, now have an appointment within 3-6 weeks of the first and their second doses need to be given on time. Unlike the UK, some countries don’t mess up their schedules. They started slow because that’s what they could afford at the time, but they won’t give you an appointment unless they’re 100% sure they can fulfill it.

That’s why the outrage from AZ not delivering on time has come from. Now each country is affected and has to cancel their citizens’ appointments, something practically unheard of.

No treatments, hospital appointments or GP face-to-faces were cancelled where I live throughout the pandemic. The health system kept going, it’s embarrassing to hiccup over some silly vaccines which just weren’t delivered on time.

@Baileysforchristmas

But where are the doses going? why can’t they go to Ireland, 3.5 millilion sitting there, that could vaccinate the whole of Ireland. There are deliveries just certain countries aren’t receiving them yet? Have the extra doses gone to Germany if so why?

You are still deflecting. Why are you so focused on those 3.5million doses? What do you think about the fact that AZ are reducing the amount days before they due to be delivered week after week to the point where countries are no longer factoring them into their vaccine schedule?

@BuggerBognor (great name), just thinking it through in more detail...

The EU's shortfall is 60 million doses in Q1, and approx 110m in Q2. 170m doses in total.

We know pretty much the entire production of Az from within the EU is going to the EU, topped up with supplies from the US.

If the Belgian court orders Az to increase supply from within the EU then that means Az opening new manufacturing sites and production lines. Not a quick process, and something that presumably would happen faster if the EU supported it rather than litigating for it. In any event, it would be useless in securing additional doses in the near future.

We know the UK's total production is about 2 million doses/week. Let us assume that the Belgian court orders Az to divert all of that into supplying the EU contract (unlikely, because as you say I don't see how the contract binds AZ UK) AND let us further assume the UK doesn't block those exports (also unlikely) or tie them up with further legal wrangling. At 2 million doses a week it would take 85 weeks to make up the Q1 and Q2 deficit alone. By which time the EU will be rolling in Pfizer. As a method of securing vaccines, it's totally meaningless.

The Serum Institute in India are manufacturing enough to be meaningful. However, the Indian government have already effectively blocked exports (because they're burning bodies in car parks) and I suspect would take little notice of a Belgian court. And I can't see that Belgian court would be so daft as to try and order an Indian company to forcibly export their product.

The other big manufacturing location is the US. If anyone thinks the US will take notice of decisions in a Belgian court then I have a bridge to sell you.

So the stated goal of this litigation - to secure the vaccines that Az promised - is clearly farcical. As you say, we need to know what relief is actually being sought, because what's presented just doesn't add up.

Lots of grammar and spelling errors there... I’m off for the evening.

What is the actual process for delivery of the vaccines to EU countries? Does anyone know?

Once AZ have, say 5m doses of the vaccine ready for delivery to the EU, what happens in practical terms? Are they delivered to a central EU hub and distributed from there? Or are they delivered directly to each country by AZ? Who decides how many vaccine doses go to each EU country out of the 5m total?

Is AZ required to update each individual country with revised delivery numbers in advance of each delivery? Or is that done centrally via the EU?

Unlike the UK, some countries don’t mess up their schedules.

What do you mean?

I always find that U.K. is crap stuff seeping in these threads

When really the U.K. is doing well on vaccine programme

@MarshaBradyo

Unlike the UK, some countries don’t mess up their schedules.

What do you mean?

If they’ve promised you a dose on X date, they won’t backtrack, they will honour the appointment. If they’ve promised on X date Y group can start booking, that’s what they have to do. It’s a completely different culture to the UK. But they can’t honour their promises if the stock doesn’t turn up.

I know several people in the UK who have had vaccine appointments cancelled or changed due to stock issues. People who have had operations and other treatments cancelled after being told they would go ahead. It’s a whole different way of doing things. If they’ve told you it’s happening, they can’t go back on their word. People will not accept that.