EU suing AZ

[Baileysforchristmas]

Do you think it’s a good idea to sue a non profit vaccine producer in the middle of a pandemic? Especially when it’s in the contract the EU can’t sue for late delivery

www.politico.eu/article/belgium-was-warned-eus-astrazeneca-contract-lacked-teeth-documents/

And what do the Eu want from this, more vaccines? I don’t think legal action will help.

Surely in many ways the Export Control Mechanism could prevent the EU getting more doses.

AZ will not import into a region which will not let it export. There are many countries that have not had their full order (or anywhere near it) of AZ. So when any surplus becomes available in UK for example or India, then it will go elsewhere and the EU production will remain for EU only.

The problem the EU has, is that they only have a couple more months where they need AZ since many countries have vastly restricted it's use.

So they are really wanting to take doses from other countries that actually want it?

@MRex

Just to go through the numbers, the EU are expecting to get 100m EU doses of 300m doses by end of June.

The UK has created vaccines for the 21m vaccinated with AZ so far; there have been 5m doses from India, so 16m. There need to be second doses before June so 32m plus say an extra 5m vaccinated with AZ in UK during April/May. That's 37m UK doses to be received by end June.

UK signed the contract for 100m doses and gave MHRA approval first so should expect to be a little ahead, yet does not appear to have received a significantly higher percentage of its contracted doses than the EU at a projected 37% UK versus 33% EU (based on a lot of assumptions about extra doses coming through that may not).

If the EU wants extra doses then all that could be provided would be to take the 16m second doses from UK + whatever 3m or so that could be left of the first doses, under 9.5% of their deficit and 6.3% of their total order.

Getting that approval presumes best efforts to mean taking doses in preference to a contract that was signed before theirs, I don't know Belgian law but that wouldn't work in UK law.

Your maths is impressive and yes as % and we don't have what we ordered then hardly looks like uk has been favoured by AZ in fact in currently curious what UK has as vaccine slow down and the owed 5million from India will not arrive. The EU won't give us any of whats produced by halix even though we invested 21 million pounds on that plant and sent vaccines task force there to support. This article claims EMA dident authorise as Netherlands were not producing enough. Then it reached feb and when they realised they were producing enough that was meant to go to uk they swooped in and stopped whatever was produced there kept within the EU. The Article facts also contradict the USA sent them nothing. America Maryland plant sent Europe either vaccines or components of the AZ vaccines .

www.politico.eu/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-shortfall-production-woes-documents/

I don't know what sort of restitution they seek I thought hard keep up EU ordered 300million in total with option top up to 400 million and were expected 100million by end quarter 2 and az reduced down to 70million?
Joe Biden has said he would send some if Americas stockpiled az to other countries not sure if EU should be top of that list India and Brazil need it badly.
The FDA haven't even authorised AZ in the states.
I don't know how many EU states have age restrictions so surely depends on how many over 50s left in eu to be vaccinated is how much they need.
I guess delay with Johnson and Johnson has made situation worse.
Reading the article some if the AZ contractors seem to be part of the issue the Belgian factory productivity has been poor.
With no contract signed between valneva and novavac I wonder if the EU action has put off other pharmaceutical companies.
Not sure Belgian courts can order uk produced az be shipped to Europe as they have no legal jurisdiction here and az uk different company to az Sweden.
Technically we should be billing them least 21 million for the money we invested in halix in Netherlands.
I feel disappointed with Moderna and belive they sent lot more to EU as we ordered 17million and they send just 500k doses to UK.
I know moderna revised downwards as did pfzier at start of year.
Not sure what moderna supply to Europe like now if they met EU order and delivery schedule.
No idea what's happening with Janson if has same issues as AZ with clots.
Also Sanofi and curevac have they even completed trials?

I don't envy the Belgian courts and don't know how soon courts case will take.
Az can't magically produce more vaccines than they have.

Taking legal action to prove a point is almost always a waste of time and money.

If you are owed money by someone who is penniless and homeless you can be as right as you like and get all the court orders in the world confirming you are owed that money but you still won't get it.

Now there may well be details of which we are unaware that makes legal action worthwhile but on the face of it it seems pointless and uncommercial with no clear objective.

I usually just read the anti EU threads, but this time the EU and actually all countries with contracts AZ should be suing.

Why, simply because they lied, they oversold, they bullshitted on what their factory capabilities were.

AZ is not trustworthy and it is irresponsible to exhaust all the supply when they have proven time and time again they will not deliver within the timeframes they negotiated in all their contracts.

I am involved in the distribution of vaccines and so far the only consistency we have is that AZ is a bonus we distribute not a guarantee.

By exhaust all supply I am speaking of holding back to ensure second dose can be administered within the recommended AZ best practise timeframe.

It looks like they will get 55million Johnson and Johnson by end quarter 2 June

www.politico.eu/article/eu-regulators-decision-opens-door-for-rollout-of-jj-vaccine/

They seem happy with risk even though its very similar type vaccine to az with clots apparently covid outweigh these risks.

www.politico.eu/article/valneva-walks-away-from-vaccine-negotiations-with-commission/
Valeneva were not really specific why they can't do a deal with EU.
Norovax says supply issues but I have a feeling its 2 reasons the UK has invested a fortune in them and anything they produce in the UK can be shipped to other countries and not blocked.
Apparently vaccine equipment things you don't consider like bags are short supply but luckily for UK we learnt from having no PPE blocked by Europe and vaccine task force brought lot equipment you would need to make vaccines.

@Dublincailin

I usually just read the anti EU threads, but this time the EU and actually all countries with contracts AZ should be suing.

Why, simply because they lied, they oversold, they bullshitted on what their factory capabilities were.

AZ is not trustworthy and it is irresponsible to exhaust all the supply when they have proven time and time again they will not deliver within the timeframes they negotiated in all their contracts.

I am involved in the distribution of vaccines and so far the only consistency we have is that AZ is a bonus we distribute not a guarantee.

This. I live in an EU country, AZ is very much still offered and administered and there are people who want it. My country has actually authorised GPs to publicly offer it to all over 18s from now on, so you can call and be put on a list, and will probably get your jabs much quicker this way, than waiting for your age group to be called.

The problem is, they simply cannot create more AZ appointments because they don’t know if and how much supply will be coming next week, next month, etc. The only country who seems to be receiving all of their contracted doses is the UK.

We want the vaccine, it just doesn’t arrive on time. You can’t plan on giving it to X group from next Thursday, because you’ll give appointments to all these people and then have to cancel them when there is no physical vaccine to give. That’s a huge logistical nightmare, better avoided in the first place.

Not to mention some third countries aren’t using AZ nor will they authorise its use, so who knows if in the future being vaccinated with AZ won’t give you right of entry into those specific countries. I might as well wait for a vaccine that has been approved everywhere.

The only country who seems to be receiving all of their contracted doses is the UK.
This is not correct, as a percentage of its order they seem similar, see my earlier post.

This isn't the big bad EU bullying AZ they were at the table when negotiations took place they set the amount of vaccines they could deliver and the time frames and they gave assurances to all countries including Britain that they were realistic and doable.

They have now been proven to be false assurances.

I stand by what I said, they lied and exaggerated their capabilities. They sold a crock of bullshit.

@Dublincailin

This isn't the big bad EU bullying AZ they were at the table when negotiations took place they set the amount of vaccines they could deliver and the time frames and they gave assurances to all countries including Britain that they were realistic and doable.

They have now been proven to be false assurances.

I stand by what I said, they lied and exaggerated their capabilities. They sold a crock of bullshit.

Unless you were also 'sat at the table', how can you state with any certainty, exactly what was agreed?

From Politico....

'The level of specificity is partially due to the legal systems they're based on. The U.K. contract is written in English law, which will judge whether both parties delivered the goods based on the exact wording of the contract. The EU contract is written in Belgian law, which focuses on whether both parties tried their best to deliver the goods and acted in good faith.

It's these extra details that give the U.K. more leverage to ensure its contract is delivered effectively. While both contracts say all parties will make their “best reasonable effort” to deliver the vaccine, the U.K. government is clearer in asserting its oversight of the agreement.

This core difference, according to a lawyer familiar with the development of the U.K. text, can be chalked up to the fact that the contract sealed with London was written by people with significant experience of purchasing agreements, specifically drug-buying deals. The European Commission’s contract, by contrast, shows a lack of commercial common sense, in the lawyer’s view.

The starkest example of this difference is a clause in the U.K. contract stating that if any party tries to force or persuade AstraZeneca or its subcontractors to do anything that could hold up the supply of the vaccine doses, the government may terminate the deal and invoke what appear to be punishment clauses — although these are largely redacted.

The EU, on the other hand, can only withhold payments until the company delivers the goods, or until it helps find more producers to make the vaccine. And as POLITICO reported last week, the non-redacted version of the contract shows that the EU also waived its right to sue AstraZeneca in the event of delivery delays.

Furthermore, officials with knowledge of the U.K. contract say the British government was a more active participant in the manufacturing of the home-grown vaccine — even though the U.K. contract was signed just a day after the one with the EU. This aggressive approach gave London a lead in securing AstraZeneca's doses.'

@Dublincailin they didn’t lie AZ said they will make best effort, what best effort is will have to be determined in court. The EU can’t sue on delivery, they can only sue on best effort.
What really pissed the EU off is they couldn’t help themselves to the vaccines made in the UK.

The opinion also raises questions about the naïveté of EU negotiators, who signed a deal that, compared to one the U.K. inked, didn't spell out specific consequences if the drugmaker under-delivered. The contract even has a clause saying the Commission cannot sue AstraZeneca if it doesn't deliver on time — a clause lawyers believe the Commission will seek to invalidate in a Belgian court.

The issue, Deloitte pointed out, is that the contract didn't give countries a robust tool to penalize the firm if the vaccines were delivered late. And it placed the onus on Belgium to assist the vaccine producer in delivering on time, including helping the company find vials and other materials.

@Dublincailin

This isn't the big bad EU bullying AZ they were at the table when negotiations took place they set the amount of vaccines they could deliver and the time frames and they gave assurances to all countries including Britain that they were realistic and doable.

They have now been proven to be false assurances.

I stand by what I said, they lied and exaggerated their capabilities. They sold a crock of bullshit.

I agree with this to be honest. it would be one thing if they under-delivered by a couple of million but we are talking about receiving a small fraction of what was actually negotiated. AZ can of course show in the course of the legal action why they under-delivered so badly and show how they made 'best efforts' but still fell wildly short.

Posters here like to talk about how it is all a cover for the EUs failing vaccine schedule but how on earth do you book people in for vaccines when week after week after week AZ are changing that schedule because that is what is happening. They are consistently under-delivering and changing schedules.

AZ are a multi billion dollar pharma company I am sure they are more than capable of proving that they are not at fault if that is indeed the case.

Can you imagine being a lawyer on this case, on either side. I also think the EU were told before they signed the contract it would be a push to fulfill the order in time as they would’ve known how difficult it is set up the plants in the EU as they had leant this lesson in the UK, 3 months prior. The misunderstanding seems to have come from the EU thought they had first dibs on the UK vaccines, who know why 🤷‍♀️

@BuggerBognor yes I feel sorry for the legal team on both sides, it’s a nightmare and will go on for months.

Urgh, that brought back a dreadful memory of a company stating through lawyers that they wouldn't pay a penny because they weren't told something. Very late couple of nights to produce the list of 285 or so times they were told that thing in meeting agendas and slides, emails, signed off minutes of calls etc etc etc and we offered up a copy of every one of the proofs. Funnily enough we got paid. No apology though.

Anyone can say they weren't told, didn't expect etc etc. Wait and see.

@Baileysforchristmas

It’ll be interesting to see how long the court case will take, I hope it will give answers and put a line under this once and for all but I can see it going on for months

Less if AZ settle out of court. Unlikely they didn’t weigh up the chances of this happening when the production problems meant they short changed the EU contract by more than the U.K. one.

Someone somewhere will have weighed up the potential costs before decisions were made.

That sort of comment proves the point made upthread and I know was made on the previous iterations of this thread that people need to increase the scope of their research/reading

I read a lot of German language media and social media.

Admittedly I don't read about France except through the English language media (or what I pick up from Tageschau and the like).

But it's certainly been the case that vaccination centres in Germany have been half full because people don't want AZ. That's probably way some states have said it doesn't matter how old you are, if you are happy to have AZ you can have it/make an appointment now.

I've seen plenty of people replying to someone I follow here who had AZ to say they were sorry for her and it was a pity that she didn't get the Biontech one. All based in Germany/tweeting in German.

And of course the Danes don't want it (at the moment at least).

why not way

how on earth do you book people in for vaccines when week after week after week AZ are changing that schedule because that is what is happening. They are consistently under-delivering and changing schedules

ALL the vaccine companies are doing that. The UK has had hiccups in supply too and not just because of the Indian consignment being held up/diverted to people in India. Vaccine production is an exact science except that it isn't.