Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots

[Whichjab]

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/astrazeneca-vaccine-side-effects-blood-clots-under-40-b931498.html

This is concerning, especially as there is limited research into combining vaccinations. I feel that the trust in vaccination is being eroded. I have always been pro vacc but feeling much less so atm.
I'm not sure I will get my second jab now.

@Rainbowsandstorms

Does anyone have any links for scientific data regarding how long immunity from the first dose of AZ lasts? I’m aware that the second dose boosts the efficiency but am struggling to find an answer regarding how long immunity from the first dose lasts. I’m not looking for any debate regarding the risks of the second dose as I’m watching the data carefully and am weighing it up for my own personal circumstances.

We have no idea. The closest you'd get is looking at the Jannsen data as that's a single dose vaccine with a similar vector but that trial started less than eight months ago.

@Puffthemagicdragongoestobed unfortunately there doesn’t yet seem to be any alternative plan. Some other countries that have suspended AZ have given a different vaccination for a second dose but that’s also untested, clinical trials into mixing vaccinations are ongoing. I’d recently read that the AZ first dose provides protection for at least 16 weeks but I didn’t save the link so please don’t take that as fact and do your own research but it’s worth researching as it may buy you some time to decide what to do while feeling reassured that you have some protection. Given the most recent data it looks like the cases per million in the younger age groups are likely to continue to rise and a decision will have to be taken. I’m in my 30s and due my second dose in six weeks but I hope the situation will be a bit clearer by then. I currently feel like I’m between a rock and a hard place. I want the full protection but it appears that for my age group and yours that the risk v benefits of the vaccination is a very fine balance and there still very little data regarding second doses.

@QueenStromba thank you that was my assumption that it’s very unknown. I’ll look into the Jansen trial data is that the same as the Johnson Johnson vaccination? I’ve got six weeks before my next is due so I’m hoping to be able to make a more informed choice by then.

It's a similar vaccine but they used a different adenovirus vector. I would imagine, if anything, that the AZ would have slightly better efficacy as Jannsen used a human virus so some people will have preexisting antibodies to the vector.

WHY don't they tell us more re second dose and out of how many second doses the 4 people got the clots

Importantly why not tell us re 2nd jab and when these people developed the symptoms of a blot clot/s?

What is the secret?

[quote Fieldofmemes]**@Torvean* @Whichjab*

As per my previous post: risk of dying from Covid as at 12 April 2021 for healthy 30-year-old woman: 1 in 250 000
(source: QCovid official risk calculator).[/quote]
Thanks, so getting covid is less risky than getting the AZ vaccine if you are young and healthy.

Is the 1 in 250 000 based on the risk once you have caught covid, if so the risk of dying from covid is even smaller.

@Rainbowsandstorms
This is from the HSE in Ireland -
https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/astrazeneca/immunity/
‘It takes 3 weeks after getting the 1st dose for it to start to work. Research so far shows that protection after the 1st dose lasts for at least 16 weeks.’

Interestingly -
‘If you are under 60
If you are under 60 without a high-risk, or a very high-risk medical condition, you should wait until 16 weeks have passed to get your 2nd dose.
This has increased from 12 weeks. The extra time is to allow more research as more

@Emma2021

WHY don't they tell us more re second dose and out of how many second doses the 4 people got the clots

Importantly why not tell us re 2nd jab and when these people developed the symptoms of a blot clot/s?

What is the secret?

What's the secret? The government has based everything on the vaccinations, they can not afford, and have not planned for a derailment.

@QueenStromba thank you that’s a huge help I hadn’t even thought of looking at their data. I believe it has slightly lower efficiency in the first place too but hopefully it’ll give a bit of an idea re how long protection from one dose of AZ will last.

Just a tip for people who want a non AZ jab. My local hub five mins away had first appointments for this week which I thought was odd. But when I tried to book they never had any second ones at the same hub.

For some reason I put a postcode from 100 miles away and it came up with options at about 10 different Moderna hubs. I have had my first one today locally and am travelling 80 miles for my second in July.

I knew it would be moderna based on the 2nd dose locations. It's just a hint in case you want Moderna and are willing to travel.

Is anyone aware of any data regarding this from other countries that have continued to use AZ across the younger age groups. I’m aware of the high rates in some of the countries that have discontinued it.

I'm sorry but I just don't have it in me to read another vax thread just now, but I wanted to remind everyone of a few facts that might not have been mentioned (sorry if they have)

1: the risk/reward ratio was done on the assumption of the virus being low so if it's not low in your area the balance quickly shifts to the vaccine 'winning'. We were on the brink of medium in most of the country when it was done & that tipped all age groups into the vac winning

2: it was done for 16 weeks (normal for these calculations) BUT the vax gives you protection for much longer - so that tips the vaccine over into winning as well

3: it ONLY takes into account severe (ICU) cases of Covid, not general ward/home/long Covid. If it did, the vaccine would 'win' too.

4: risk of death from a clot now is extremely low.

5: risk from other medication is much higher.

Risks of clots from the pill etc is MUCH
MUCH MUCH higher and whilst it's a different clot, both can kill you so why does that matter. It's like calculating deaths from being hit by a car & saying buses don't count. Dead is dead.

The other vaccines will carry risks too, they just haven't vaccinated as many people with them yet. (And they are seeing clots after other vaccines).

Your chances of being very very unwell or dead from CV are far higher that your risk of clots, serious illness or death from the vaccine.

You need to weigh up all the facts not just half the information.

Get a different vaccine.

Your numbers are wrong though. That calculation you've used comes from a study that's reviewed in the lancet. There are a lot of limitations with it.

Look up the deaths in Brazil of ppl in there 30-40s with no health issues.

@AlmostSummer21 if you had read the thread you would know why many posters do not agree with you. We are discussing the yellow card data that is being released weekly. Have you read it?

Thank you @Rainbowsandstorms and @YoshimisMum. This is helpful. I am now exactly 10 weeks post jab so this buys me some time.

@AlmostSummer21

I'm sorry but I just don't have it in me to read another vax thread just now, but I wanted to remind everyone of a few facts that might not have been mentioned (sorry if they have)

1: the risk/reward ratio was done on the assumption of the virus being low so if it's not low in your area the balance quickly shifts to the vaccine 'winning'. We were on the brink of medium in most of the country when it was done & that tipped all age groups into the vac winning

2: it was done for 16 weeks (normal for these calculations) BUT the vax gives you protection for much longer - so that tips the vaccine over into winning as well

3: it ONLY takes into account severe (ICU) cases of Covid, not general ward/home/long Covid. If it did, the vaccine would 'win' too.

4: risk of death from a clot now is extremely low.

5: risk from other medication is much higher.

Risks of clots from the pill etc is MUCH
MUCH MUCH higher and whilst it's a different clot, both can kill you so why does that matter. It's like calculating deaths from being hit by a car & saying buses don't count. Dead is dead.

The other vaccines will carry risks too, they just haven't vaccinated as many people with them yet. (And they are seeing clots after other vaccines).

Your chances of being very very unwell or dead from CV are far higher that your risk of clots, serious illness or death from the vaccine.

You need to weigh up all the facts not just half the information.

When someone includes risks from the pill I tend to assume that they are a government bot. In fact your whole post makes me think that

As per my previous post: risk of dying from Covid as at 12 April 2021 for healthy 30-year-old woman: 1 in 250 000
(source: QCovid official risk calculator).

Sorry but this is horseshit.

The QCovid calculator was designed for medical professionals who actually understand what it means.

It's not the risk of covid - it's the combined risk of catching covid and succombing to it. This is obviously a time dependent figure - 90 days I think.

So currently, as the level of the virus in the community is low, your chance of catching covid is low - but obviously it won't stay that way in the event of a third wave.

It's a ridiculous notion anyway - the vaccine generates a small amount of the spike protein in your body - it's this protein that is causing the clots. The virus itself generates an awful lot more of the same protein!. So of course, it's unsurprising that the risk of clots from a covid infection are MUCH higher than with the vaccine.

@bookworm1632

*As per my previous post: risk of dying from Covid as at 12 April 2021 for healthy 30-year-old woman: 1 in 250 000 (source: QCovid official risk calculator).*

Sorry but this is horseshit.

The QCovid calculator was designed for medical professionals who actually understand what it means.

It's not the risk of covid - it's the combined risk of catching covid and succombing to it. This is obviously a time dependent figure - 90 days I think.

So currently, as the level of the virus in the community is low, your chance of catching covid is low - but obviously it won't stay that way in the event of a third wave.

It's a ridiculous notion anyway - the vaccine generates a small amount of the spike protein in your body - it's this protein that is causing the clots. The virus itself generates an awful lot more of the same protein!. So of course, it's unsurprising that the risk of clots from a covid infection are MUCH higher than with the vaccine.

It actually appears to be some combination of the spike protein plus adenovirus since only the AZ and Jannsen vaccines seem to cause it.

I got a pulmonary embolism from the pill and am not a bot. A bot would have less cellulite Im sure.

@pommedeterre

I got a pulmonary embolism from the pill and am not a bot. A bot would have less cellulite Im sure.

I'm sorry to hear that but it's like comparing apples and rhinos

@Sebw can you tell me how you know where the Moderna hubs are? I’m not due my jab yet (39) but I know I don’t want AZ, not only due to clotting fears but because I’ve had long covid and it seems so far that AZ is worse for those with long covid, Pfizer appears best and Moderna also better. I’m talking about severe side effects and worsening of ongoing symptoms, not in everyone but in a significant proportion of people. There’s a large study into the best vaccine for long covid sufferers but until that comes out it would be useful to know where the Moderna (and Pfizer although that seems unlikely) hubs are. I’m happy waiting for my vaccine a bit as possibly still have some protection anyway but I would like to have it eventually.

@YoshimisMum thank you so much for that link. I knew I’d read 16 weeks somewhere. That’s interesting that Ireland are advising lower risk people to wait until 16 weeks for their second dose to allow more time for reasearch. I think I’m going to move my second appointment a little bit later as hopefully in another 10 weeks there will be a lot more information.

I had my first dose AZ 15 weeks ago I took antibody test at 14 weeks and didn’t have any antibodies.

I am in a research study and we were informed that even if you test negative for antibodies it may be just that they are not at a sufficiently high level to trigger a positive result, not that you don’t have any.

@YoshimisMum

"The extra time is to allow more research as more evidence becomes available."

That's quite a find, that sentence!