India

[Baileysforchristmas]

How on earth are India going to get there numbers down? If they impose to harsher lockdown people will starve to death. I think virus was quietly spreading in February when everyone was saying how well India was doing.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/21/delhi-warns-hospitals-running-out-of-oxygen-amid-indias-devastating-covid-wave

@Unsure33 Of course it has to be organised but we are a year in to this pandemic, how much more organising do we need?

My point is, that in the case of India, a nuclear power, with a space program, money isn't the primary issue.

@Kishkashta

People did suffocate at home during the first lockdown after not being taken to hospital by the ambulance because of what essentially was triage to prevent uk hospitals from being overwhelmed. It is true that it wasn’t in any way close to India’s scale just let’s not forget that this happened (and how just weeks before that UK didn’t want to impose lockdown).

There were a few weeks in March 2020 where prioritization calls were being made in the UK that weren't always correct; ambulances were taking over an hour to arrive in London so some prioritization was needed. It is worth remembering that was before it was known how commonly covid leads to silent hypoxia or severe hypoxemia with near normal respiratory system compliance; that's a highly unusual feature of covid and that's why the triage was incorrect. The NHS assessment and admission advice changed once that was known. There were also excess deaths from people fearful of going into hospital who died of strokes and heart attacks; from other causes or untested covid.

No one is claiming that the pandemic was handled perfectly here, it certainly wasn't.
At the same time, it's taken for granted in the UK that if you're ill you call an ambulance, it arrives eventually fully equiped, in hospital you are supplied with oxygen and medicines if needed and if you die there are agencies who will take of your body.
This is not happening in India for many people at the moment, and personally I find it quite disrespectful to imply that we suffered in the same way they are now. It's like when people claim that British people are 'starving' when in fact we have a comprehensive benefit system backed up by charities and foodbanks to prevent that.

@Marguerite2000 I agree, bodies are being burnt on waste land, dead bodies left out on the street, wealthy people hoarding oxygen in case they get sick brought on the black market, none of this happened in the UK, we’re not perfect but we’re along way off being like India.

www.diabetes.co.uk/global-diabetes/diabetes-in-india.html

I thought this was interesting as diabetics have worse outcomes with covid. Nearly ten percent in urban areas with diabetes, and at an earlier age as well.

@Orangesandlemons77

www.diabetes.co.uk/global-diabetes/diabetes-in-india.html

I thought this was interesting as diabetics have worse outcomes with covid. Nearly ten percent in urban areas with diabetes, and at an earlier age as well.

I really don't get why diabetes (especially for over 40s) wasn't included as CEV in the UK. I think I read the other day diabetics are twice as likely to have poor outcomes from Covid.

Is it really that many in India? I wonder why?

I think I read the other day diabetics are twice as likely to have poor outcomes from Covid

There was research/analysis done in May/June last year but I haven't seen anything else since. I think it was UK-wide. Basically, age was the biggest issue when it came to deaths but type 1s were dying in their early 70s and type 2s in their late 70s rather than over 80 for non-diabetics. Type 2s were 2 - 3 times more likely to die and type 1s were 3 to 4 times more likely to die. At that point no one under the age of 20 with a diagnosis of diabetes had died. That's pretty grim reading if you're a diabetic.

@Ylvamoon

It's sad, but India is a 3rd world country. Most people are very poor without adequate housing yet alone access to medical care. The cases we hear about are probably the tip of the iceberg. Nobody seems to be interested in the fact that TB is rife as well as typhoid - these are illnesses that have been almost eradicated in western society.

Maybe the Indian govt should rethink its spending priorities and stop spending so much money on it's space program?

Tealightsandd I really don't get why diabetes (especially for over 40s) wasn't included as CEV in the UK. I think I read the other day diabetics are twice as likely to have poor outcomes from Covid.

I think they were including in 'underlying conditions, group 6?'

Is it really that many in India? I wonder why?
I'n unsure, but have read South Asians tend to develop it at a lower BMI..

@EveryDayIsADuvetDay India's latest space programme cost less than the George Clooney movie "Gravity". Honestly, the complex issues that India has can't be solved by reductionist solutions like yours, any more than poverty in Britain can be solved by spending less on Carrie Symond's flat.

The UK definitely should include diabetics in the group who get a third booster shot in the autumn.

I still don't understand why America is hanging on to its AZ stock? They've said they don't want or need it. Surely they should send it to India?

And while all this is going on and India needs more vaccines, the EU decide to sue Astrazeneca 🤷‍♀️

When watching the news from India I noticed that many of the sick people they showed were in their 30s-40s, but also many of them seemed quite overweight - surprising in some ways, considering the poverty levels in India. Maybe they also have an obesity epidemic, like many wealthier countries, as the cheapest food is not always the healthiest? So, it follows that type 2 diabetes might be an issue in India, as well as the UK.

When things were going well for Imdia I thought perhaps it was due to them having a younger population, overall, plus the sunshine levels giving them increased Vitamin D levels. Perhaps those advantages are now outweighed by the crowded living conditions and poor sanitation? All very worrying and sad.

@Clotsaway

Just read the news updates on India, truly a sad situation there at the moment. Also read their neighbour's, Pakistan, has a charity that has offered to help them by sending ambulances and staff. Tension has always run hight between these two countries but hoping in their time if need, India accepts the offer!

Wow!

@Tealightsandd

The UK definitely should include diabetics in the group who get a third booster shot in the autumn.

I still don't understand why America is hanging on to its AZ stock? They've said they don't want or need it. Surely they should send it to India?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56893701

Not clear where Biden will send them yet, presumably to a range of countries. The US is at the percentage who said they wanted to be vaccinated, so while final second doses as well as vaccination campaigns are sure to continue it's likely that lots of vaccines of all types will start shipping from the US soon.

I think we were heading in mar 2020 exactly the way india may be.
You couldnt buy face masks
I bought an oxygen concentrator as there would have been no hospital beds.
Gps were refusing to go anywhere either.
Care home residents werent allowed to hospital
They were telling people that you would have to sort your own dying relatives at home
They found loads of dead bodies in the weeks after in their homes
You had to be blue to go to hospital
No tests so if you felt ill you were still to afraid to go to hospital in case it wasnt covid and instead you caught it.
Even jan 21 the ambulances were lined up in i think london for hours on end
One hospital had to lower the oxygen each patient was getting.

Also deaths per mil are much higher here than india though everyones data will be innaccurate.

In ny they were digging mass graves
In uk people had some sort of morgue at the end of their road
Spain with it's ice rinks etc

Our mortality rate remains higher than India’s. Although they are likely to exceed our rate in about four weeks time, tragically. Likely to rise to very high numbers indeed.

Vaccination is their most obvious tool to reduce numbers and their programme isn’t too bad but they'll not have anywhere near enough despite it being made in India. The world needs to put humanity ahead of profit.
They probably need strict regional and state lockdown but can’t impose local lockdown because of the numbers living in abject poverty without any sort of infrastructure. The slum populations will be decimated.
They could protect some rural areas by stopping travel. It’s so hard though.

That's good news about America donating (and providing the raw materials too) @Mrex

Seriously you think those numbers are correct from India? 185000 deaths? People from India have already said that is the top of the iceberg, it’s more 1.8 million

My very good friend’s mother is sick. Oxygen saturation at 82. My friend is a doctor. She’s managed to get her a bed at a hospital after much wrangling. But there is no oxygen and not medicines available. She won’t make it unless they can organise this. And as I said she’s a senior doctor herself. She’s been calling everyone she knows and pulling every string possible.
This is not someone who is going to die of COVID. This is someone who is going to die of criminal neglect.

I'm so sorry about your friend's mum, @ChaBishkoot. The situation is unimaginably bad. Covid itself is awful, but it is even more awful to think that so many people are dying unnecessarily due to poor planning, poor management and poor decision-making.

@UrbanRambler

When watching the news from India I noticed that many of the sick people they showed were in their 30s-40s, but also many of them seemed quite overweight - surprising in some ways, considering the poverty levels in India. Maybe they also have an obesity epidemic, like many wealthier countries, as the cheapest food is not always the healthiest? So, it follows that type 2 diabetes might be an issue in India, as well as the UK.

When things were going well for Imdia I thought perhaps it was due to them having a younger population, overall, plus the sunshine levels giving them increased Vitamin D levels. Perhaps those advantages are now outweighed by the crowded living conditions and poor sanitation? All very worrying and sad.

What I've read is that this wave seems to be affecting the urban middle class who live in tower blocks rather than the slums.

There has been this theory in the past that Africa was less affected by the first wave of covid because of the squalid conditions meaning that either anyone who had weaker immune systems and vulnerable to covid had already died in the past from other causes OR the squalid conditions meant that their immunity was higher as they'd caught or been exposed to go knows what else in the past so had higher levels of natural immunity.

The research in India suggests that covid has swept through the slums already to a certain degree.

What we are seeing on TV are lots of people with an expectation of health care or able to pay for things on the black market (something that is going to be much less likely if you are living in the slums). Death in the slums perhaps, sadly, is just much more usual and expected.

Hence seeing overweight people. They are the middle class not the poorest who live hand to mouth.

Why did it suddenly blow up? India seemed to be doing well. What happened?

Probably lots of reasons, @TeamCuthbert. Lots of countries have had second/third waves, after all. Part of the problem is that India didn't prepare adequately for this.

There have been far too many mass gatherings - election rallies, religious festivals, huge weddings etc. All of these would have encouraged the virus to spread.

Then there are the new variants. The Kent variant is more transmissible, we know, and that seems to have had a significant impact. Then there are at least a couple of new Indian variants which may be similar.

And it's possible that, due to poor public health surveillance and limited access to health care for a significant proportion of the population, case rates/death rates may never have been as low as they seemed anyway. The virus might have been silently spreading for ages, and it's only now that the effects of that are being observed.

@paralysedbyinertia I think you’re right. I just don’t understand why it wasn’t this way to start with. I worked for 13 years with an Indian workforce and our biggest challenge was getting people to take safety seriously. No matter how many fatalities happened, people just refused to wear the hard hats, harnesses, seat belts, etc. that were provided.

Seeing all those people at rallies with no masks and no social distancing took me back to that time. Indians (at least in India) seem to have a different perspective on risk.

Added to that, India is packed with people living on top of each other, making it so easy for the virus to spread.

I am surprised this is only happening now, to be honest.