Can someone explain to me...

[GoToSleepBabyPlease]

What's so special about COVID? It's not as deadly or as contagious as many other diseases we routinely vaccinate against, yet we're now talking about implementing ID cards- which civil liberties campaigners have fought against for decades, for good reason- so that vaccination passports can be utilised. Why?

Why is it not like every other disease we've encountered to date- offer the vaccine, people either accept it or take their chances with the disease, and then life goes on? We are already one of the most closely monitored populations in the western world when it comes to surveillance of the innocent. What makes COVID worth sacrificing yet more of our freedom for?

You are correct which is why I suspect that the concept of vaccine passports won't get widely implemented in the UK or elsewhere

It would be so easy to forge for anyone determined that it would be meaningless

@hodgebit

But that's only because it's new, not because it's especially dangerous. It's no Yersinia Pestis. 150,000 from a population of well over 60 million.

But it's 150,000 of those that were infected... which was a good percentage of the population, but it certainly no evidence that we've reached a "herd immunity" limit
and that the 30m vaccinations have been futile.

Also, look at Brazil... Manaus seemed to achieve a decent level of herd immunity as infections dropped after a torrid time earlier in the year... Then the new variant swept through...

I don't see vaccinations as futile and I accept that it'll be a seasonal thing, like flu jabs are. What I don't get is why passports and ID cards as necessary for that to happen.

Measles had been around for a lot longer, so a degree of resilience to it was built into the population. If you introduced it to a population of people of all ages who'd never encountered it before, you'd find a different story.

Indeed, measles was devastating for the New World when Europeans arrived 400-500 years ago, but I don't see how that's relevant to your point.

LOL @ OP

Either you are extremely naive (doubtful from your responses) or you’re looking for a slanging match.

This has nothing to do with your freedoms. Alas, You were never free to begin with, you just had the illusion of freedom.

Covid left unchecked is a threat to the mechanics of our every day life, a destructive force that could cause big problems. What we are experiencing now is a slight inconvenience compared to the calamity of us not trying to get a grip of this situation.

Watch the George Carlin YouTube video ‘The Big Club’, you ain’t in it OP.

Really?

This COVID that still managed to kill 125,000 people in the UK despite lockdowns and many vulnerable people shielding for months on end?

The COVID that has caused
catastrophic long term effects among many younger people in the form of long Covid??

I think Yersinia Pestis is not a particularly helpful comparison here. Yes, it has killed millions of people over the last few 1000 years, most of whom had absolutely no idea about bacteria or the causes of disease and had no hope of ever creating a vaccine

We are far more technologically advanced with instant world-wide communication and COVID has still managed to kill coming up to 3 million and counting.

@Thewiseoneincognito

LOL @ OP

Either you are extremely naive (doubtful from your responses) or you’re looking for a slanging match.

This has nothing to do with your freedoms. Alas, You were never free to begin with, you just had the illusion of freedom.

Covid left unchecked is a threat to the mechanics of our every day life, a destructive force that could cause big problems. What we are experiencing now is a slight inconvenience compared to the calamity of us not trying to get a grip of this situation.

Watch the George Carlin YouTube video ‘The Big Club’, you ain’t in it OP.

You read 1984 by George Orwell and I'll watch your video.

Rights are easily lost and hard won.

@theluckiest

Really?

This COVID that still managed to kill 125,000 people in the UK despite lockdowns and many vulnerable people shielding for months on end?

The COVID that has caused
catastrophic long term effects among many younger people in the form of long Covid??

I think Yersinia Pestis is not a particularly helpful comparison here. Yes, it has killed millions of people over the last few 1000 years, most of whom had absolutely no idea about bacteria or the causes of disease and had no hope of ever creating a vaccine

We are far more technologically advanced with instant world-wide communication and COVID has still managed to kill coming up to 3 million and counting.

And? Why does this mean we need vaccine passports and ID cards?

(As an aside, the technological advancement goes a long way to explaining its spread- without the ease of modern day international travel it would have been much slower.)

Good Question OP.

You’ll be laughed at because no one has an answer.

“ But that's only because it's new, not because it's especially dangerous. It's no Yersinia Pestis. 150,000 from a population of well over 60 million.”

Ok now read that again and tell me which other virus has done that in a year?
Now the other viruses that you mentioned in your OP were not as devastating in terms of death toll and also we have achieved herd immunity for them.
The vaccine passports and some continued restrictions are there until we are in a similar situation and have achieved a decent amount of herd immunity.
If we opened up well before herd immunity was established, we will risk more deaths and a never ending cycle of overwhelming the nhs, as well as risk new variants which may be resistant to the vaccine and treatments.

@Thewiseoneincognito

LOL @ OP

Either you are extremely naive (doubtful from your responses) or you’re looking for a slanging match.

This has nothing to do with your freedoms. Alas, You were never free to begin with, you just had the illusion of freedom.

Covid left unchecked is a threat to the mechanics of our every day life, a destructive force that could cause big problems. What we are experiencing now is a slight inconvenience compared to the calamity of us not trying to get a grip of this situation.

Watch the George Carlin YouTube video ‘The Big Club’, you ain’t in it OP.

Whilst you are busy laughing at the OP. How about seriously answering the very rational question? Everyone is saying how dangerous and I know Covid 19 is no one has said why the need for passports and ID cards?

You’ve said Covid left unchecked is a threat to the mechanics of everyday life. How do vaccine passports and ID cards help. Since everyone other than OP and myself know the answer how about someone actually answering.

As an aside, I’m not telling anyone how to use MN but, if you do not know the answer to a question, it’s not a stupid question.

I answered your question in the third post OP. You have repeated the same points, so you obviously already know.

It’s new. We don’t have the background immunity to it as a species like we do for other diseases.

That took decades to build up with repeated vaccinations and systematic vaccination of year group after year group.

We’ve only been vaccinating since January!! Many countries have barely started.

The consequence of all of this is it is always on a knife edge, ready to take hold again. We do not have control of this yet.

The vaccine passports and some continued restrictions are there until we are in a similar situation and have achieved a decent amount of herd immunity.

So whilst PP laugh at OP someone posts the most naive statement I’ve read in a long time.

Nothing is short term. Give governments an inch they’ll take a mile. Seriously, you think they’ll make this temporary?

That’s like when I said Richard Branson has no business in the NHS, he’ll sue the NHS for non compliance and everyone ignored it till they were up in arms about him, guess what? Suing the NHS. GTFOOH with that one please. Temporary my arse!

Faultymain5

I guess vaccine passports etc. help keep it in check by preventing unvaccinated people being exposed and catching it.

There are still ~50% of U.K. population who are naive to coronavirus.
For measles (for example) it’s more like 5%.

Well I guess you can't educate stupid, so carry on as you are.
You will never get it, I'm guessing.
Meantime, in the real world, other people are dealing with the fact that their families and loved ones may be vulnerable to a new virus that they have no immunity to, and are still not fully vaccinated for - but go you! 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Faultymain5 some will disagree with my opinion but I believe once people realise the vaccines are not going to be able to help regain normality the passports and IDs will be a distant memory. They’re being suggested now as a carrot to dangle for people to start to go about their lives as safely as possible under the illusion they are immune and safe. The grim truth is that this thing is a chameleon and will adapt.

We need a complete cure, not a vaccine.

But you must know that’s just not true. Having the vaccine and therefore the passport reduces transmission (and serious effects if you catch it). It does not prevent unvaccinated people from being exposed and/or catching it. Further, even if it did they’re only suggesting concert venues and sporting events at this stage. We must realise many people have caught this disease via the supermarket either in person or with deliveries.

@mineofuselessinformation

Well I guess you can't educate stupid, so carry on as you are. You will never get it, I'm guessing. Meantime, in the real world, other people are dealing with the fact that their families and loved ones may be vulnerable to a new virus that they have no immunity to, and are still not fully vaccinated for - but go you! 🤷🏻‍♀️

Well I’m sure that was helpful to OP. Most of us have learned calling people stupid will not bend them to our will , but you do you!

The nhs is overwhelmed every winter...not sure why people are using this as an argument for how bad COVID is

[quote Thewiseoneincognito]@Faultymain5 some will disagree with my opinion but I believe once people realise the vaccines are not going to be able to help regain normality the passports and IDs will be a distant memory. They’re being suggested now as a carrot to dangle for people to start to go about their lives as safely as possible under the illusion they are immune and safe. The grim truth is that this thing is a chameleon and will adapt.

We need a complete cure, not a vaccine.[/quote]
Well this is what I’ve been saying. Normal life requires cure, but if we’re honest about the world in which we’re living,there is no profit in giving a one off vaccination for free. But a vaccine that requires boosters? That’s like a dealer at the school gate giving your first drug for free. It’ll be a great money spinner eventually.

Covid is real, in case anyone thinks I’m into conspiracies, but through every disaster someone’s always out there making money. But I notice when it comes to Covid 19, there is this mental block and people truly believe what is being done is for our benefit.

Ok now read that again and tell me which other virus has done that in a year?

There's no analogue. Most novel viruses were introduced before the days of globalisation and fast international travel, so took much longer to spread (and the death counts are harder to tally because of limitations in record keeping back then, and the global population was much smaller, so the counts are smaller anyway as absolute numbers). The ones that we've encountered since the advent of fast and regular international travel have been stopped by effective quarantine. It doesn't make COVID a superbug, just something new that slipped the net.

So far we've vaccinated half the population with one jab and 10% with two. It's taken five months to do that. Now, if it takes another five months to give the first half their second vaccine, fully immunising all of the vulnerable who can be vaccinated and quite a few extras on top, at that point, it's unlikely to overwhelm the NHS, bearing in mind that viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous, not more (it's not in their interests to kill their hosts).
Given how long it would take to design, legislate for and implement cards and passports, I don't think it would be useful prior to the point at which half the population is fully vaccinated. Not enough to ensure herd immunity yet, but enough that the NHS wouldn't be overwhelmed by another wave. Various variants may emerge that the vaccine is less effective for, but presumably you just tweak the vaccine annually for the variants as for flu and give it to the vulnerable in the autumn? If we're waiting for the whole world to be vaccinated we're on to a losing battle- it mutates too quickly for that to ever work.

Well I’m sure that was helpful to OP. Most of us have learned calling people stupid will not bend them to our will , but you do you!

Not to worry- I tend to just read it as, 'Ive nothing useful to add to this discussion- grrr!'

*I've

Vaccination passports might be necessary until case numbers get low enough that it's not such a risk.

Measles only has a very low rate in the community now, so we don't need proof of that everywhere we go (though some childcare settings do ask). If it started to spread massively, then it might be useful.

If we had locked down earlier or had more effective test and trace, and it hadn't got out of hand, then vaccine passports might not have been needed either.

But at the moment, with a very contagious disease, little background immunity, high case numbers in the population still, serious consequences of the disease both in terms of death and long term effects in younger people, vaccination passports could potentially be useful. I'm not sure I am in favour of them, myself, though I most definitely am in favour of vaccination. But I do understand why they could be useful, more so than ones for something like measles.

I agree with some of what you’ve said about Covid.

But

ID cards- which civil liberties campaigners have fought against for decades

I’m sorry, which civil liberties? I’m a national of a country with ID cards. I don’t understand what’s wrong about them and which liberties I’m having curtailed by carrying a card in my purse and showing it to the authorities as and when required? Which has happened (randomly) a total amount of about 5 times in the last 20 years?

Vaccine passports - you have a point. ID cards - I’m going to need some more details.

@EileenGC

I agree with some of what you’ve said about Covid.

But

ID cards- which civil liberties campaigners have fought against for decades

I’m sorry, which civil liberties? I’m a national of a country with ID cards. I don’t understand what’s wrong about them and which liberties I’m having curtailed by carrying a card in my purse and showing it to the authorities as and when required? Which has happened (randomly) a total amount of about 5 times in the last 20 years?

Vaccine passports - you have a point. ID cards - I’m going to need some more details.

That'd constitute a derail, but the history of ID cards in the UK is briefly summarised here:

bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2021/02/britains-fight-against-id-from-wwii-to-covid-19/