To wonder about UK reporting of AZ side effects?

[Whosthebestbabainalltheworld]

Latest news suggests Germany has had 31 cases of rare blood clots and 9 deaths in 2.7m vaccinations with Astra Zeneca, but nothing close to that seems to be happening in UK. AIBU to wonder whether UK govt. is not being fully transparent as they don’t want a mass revolt with their “all eggs in the AZ basket” approach?

Yes, I find it downright bizarre how personally triggered many people are on MN about denying the possibility that AZ could cause side effects. People are desperate to believe that those clots would have happened anyway or that the prevalence was actually less than in the general population and therefore AZ should be marketed as a treatment against blood clots (har har so funny, not).

Every single person who died from a clot following AZ is a human being with friends and family trying to make sense of the tragedy. They are not the butt of your jokes or a statistic being used for political revenge on the UK. Many countries both in and out of the EU have reported cases regarding clots, particularly the rare type of SVT. Germany and Canada have two of the best health systems in the world and anybody would be a fool not to take their lead seriously or at least give it some consideration.

For clarification, the latest information suggests that the vaccine triggers an autoimmune reaction that destroys platelets which causes excessive bleeding (eg aneurysms). The body may attempt to overcompensate by producing too many platelets which in turn cause clotting problems. This is why there are reports of both, and they do not contradict each other.

I'm pretty sure I read blood clots on the yellow card information for Astra zeneca on the government website, there's loads of different side effects.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions

you'll find it on there, along with the Pfizer side effects too!

@Userg1234

A friend who is a very experienced doctor laughed at the original reports of blood clots given that 1) this is a figure lower than the expected number of clots for that volume of people 2) the uk have prioritised older people who are more prone to this issue and have not reported an increase in such 3) the British press especially the bbc would love to prove a link given the need to sell papers or attract interest (remember the BBC widely reported the return of line of duty as a news story this week) 4) az are selling this to the USA and we know what they are like for litigation

Experience does not mean that you are "smart"...

@TickyTok

Yes, I find it downright bizarre how personally triggered many people are on MN about denying the possibility that AZ could cause side effects. People are desperate to believe that those clots would have happened anyway or that the prevalence was actually less than in the general population and therefore AZ should be marketed as a treatment against blood clots (har har so funny, not).

Every single person who died from a clot following AZ is a human being with friends and family trying to make sense of the tragedy. They are not the butt of your jokes or a statistic being used for political revenge on the UK. Many countries both in and out of the EU have reported cases regarding clots, particularly the rare type of SVT. Germany and Canada have two of the best health systems in the world and anybody would be a fool not to take their lead seriously or at least give it some consideration.

For clarification, the latest information suggests that the vaccine triggers an autoimmune reaction that destroys platelets which causes excessive bleeding (eg aneurysms). The body may attempt to overcompensate by producing too many platelets which in turn cause clotting problems. This is why there are reports of both, and they do not contradict each other.

Can I just give you a 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽

A German public health official on radio just now came up with this explanation:

AZ jab was given in Germany overwhelmingly to under 50s.
AZ jab was given in UK overwhelmingly to over 60s.
There is an immune-response aspect to the blood clots, older people have less active immune systems so are less susceptible.
The blood clots is an extremely rare side effect.

So basically, the German person explanation was that Germany has jabbed hugely more young people which is main reason why they picked up this very rare side effect (which only affects a very tiny % of the very young) -- and UK didn't jab millions of young people.

I'm far from convinced because... UK has jabbed Group 6 very vulnerable -- many of whom are age < 40. And the AZ jab depends on adenoviruses which are used in other jabs but this blood clot problem not found in those similar technology jabs.

I guess time will tell.

I'm a lot more perturbed by this story, tbh.

@TickyTok

Yes, I find it downright bizarre how personally triggered many people are on MN about denying the possibility that AZ could cause side effects. People are desperate to believe that those clots would have happened anyway or that the prevalence was actually less than in the general population and therefore AZ should be marketed as a treatment against blood clots (har har so funny, not).

Every single person who died from a clot following AZ is a human being with friends and family trying to make sense of the tragedy. They are not the butt of your jokes or a statistic being used for political revenge on the UK. Many countries both in and out of the EU have reported cases regarding clots, particularly the rare type of SVT. Germany and Canada have two of the best health systems in the world and anybody would be a fool not to take their lead seriously or at least give it some consideration.

For clarification, the latest information suggests that the vaccine triggers an autoimmune reaction that destroys platelets which causes excessive bleeding (eg aneurysms). The body may attempt to overcompensate by producing too many platelets which in turn cause clotting problems. This is why there are reports of both, and they do not contradict each other.

Yup, I've seen that reaction time and again.

As far as I'm concerned, every single death in this whole situation was a tragedy and has devastated a family. Covid itself, blood clot victims, and also the massive numbers of suicides (especially child suicides) and those who've died from not having received timely or thorough medical care due to lockdowns.

I wish it wasn't so taboo to have a more open and balanced conversation, that isn't just 'Well getting covid would be worse'.

@ragged

A German public health official on radio just now came up with this explanation:

AZ jab was given in Germany overwhelmingly to under 50s.
AZ jab was given in UK overwhelmingly to over 60s.
There is an immune-response aspect to the blood clots, older people have less active immune systems so are less susceptible.
The blood clots is an extremely rare side effect.

So basically, the German person explanation was that Germany has jabbed hugely more young people which is main reason why they picked up this very rare side effect (which only affects a very tiny % of the very young) -- and UK didn't jab millions of young people.

I'm far from convinced because... UK has jabbed Group 6 very vulnerable -- many of whom are age < 40. And the AZ jab depends on adenoviruses which are used in other jabs but this blood clot problem not found in those similar technology jabs.

I guess time will tell.

I'm a lot more perturbed by this story, tbh.

Hopefully we'll be able to tweak the vaccine to deal with mutations. Isn't that what they're doing right now? And hopefully having a wee delve into the clot stuff too.

Latest news suggests Germany has had 31 cases of rare blood clots and 9 deaths in 2.7m vaccinations with Astra Zeneca, but nothing close to that seems to be happening in UK.

Actually Austria has had 31 serious cases of SVT plus 19 unusual clotting/bleeding following AZ, and it's a fraction of the size of Germany. Only 1.1 million people have received at least one dose, with the majority being Pfizer. So generously speaking, only 400K have been AZ which brings the incidence of clots well below 1 per 100K, not 1 in
several million which were reported as acceptably rare.

So Germany has been underreporting or being very careful about reporting their cases. Austria is a tiny country and it's easier for them to collate health info from all the hospitals, plus there's zero incentive for them to lie about the numbers. Austria has always been very pro-UK, being one of the few countries that never suspended AZ despite having the first clot-related death and the chancellor openly stated he plans to get AZ himself.

EDIT: Apologies, the numbers above were for Germany! So AZ side effects are definitely rarer however I have seen articles saying the latest data could be up to 1 in 100K in younger females.

So my interpretation of it is that these super rare brain clots are caused by this rare antibody response to the vaccine which is only seen in some people. At the national level, it is in the country's interest to crack on using AZ, as it saves more than it kills, hence radio silence. On the individual risk level too, you are still more likely to die of covid than this rare type of clot. Germany have even found an antidote to the clots they think. One Italian scientist likened the choice to two doors. The covid door and the vaccine door. It could save you or kill you. Actually, it's more like spinning the barrel of two guns. I'd take my chances with AZ, it seems much more likely to do good than harm. Worth being aware that a bad headache is warning sign after vaccination though.

@Plumedenom
Oh no now I’m worried. I’m in my 40s, female, fit, healthy etc, had the AZ two weeks ago and had a splitting headache afterwards. It’s still there slightly on the side I had the jab as well as a slightly stiff neck.

I’m beginning to wish I’d not had it:(
Am I at risk??

Im worried to as had jab 10 days ago and in my forties
What I don't understand is how they didn't know these numbers just last week when they paused it , haVe they just happened?
Also in trials did it happen?
Would also like to see all data of how many have had it under certain age , compared to here to see as surely we would of seen more incidences here as I know a few under 50's who got AZ including myself so we must have high numbers too surely ?

I am still curious as to how many of those that suffered clots after getting the AZ had already had covid? I think it's likely the numbers will be higher and will ultimately be proven to be the trigger for the clots as opposed to the vaccine.

@iolaus are you saying you reported before jan and not included or you reported after jan ?

Worth being aware that a bad headache is warning sign after vaccination though.

Is that really the case?

Both my partner and I had an unusual headache for a few days after the vaccine 6 weeks ago and both have been fine since.

I’m not sure where this view that we’ve put all our eggs in the AZ basket comes from. As of mid March we’d given about 11m first doses of Pfizer and 14m first doses of AZ.

@Kimye4eva yes and we have bought several other kinds but I guess its because as of now Az is the one we produce here and what we seem to have at moment as pfizer seems to now be for 2nd Jabs , moderna is on way but not here yet and same for others and i guess we have done a fair amount of the over 55's

This is where anti-vax stuff gets you - it’s really hard to have a sane conversation about this!

I think there’s probably enough smoke now to think that there really is a fire, but I can see why, if the risk is low, they’re desperate to keep sticking it in our arms.

Unfortunately that adds fuel to the anti-vax fire.

And people really should be allowed to make an informed choice.

The cost-benefit analysis for taking AZ may be sex and age dependent (hence why some countries have stopped using it in young people or young women). For someone in their 80s the risk of dying from COVID is high (like 1/10 or similar) but the risk of getting this rare blood clot from AZ seems to be very low (might be 1 in millions). For a woman in their 20s, the risk of dying from the clotting disorder after AZ vaccine may be one in a hundred thousand or less, which is probably greater than the risk of dying from COVID. If that is the case (and the data aren't secure yet), then society would be asking young people (especially women) to increase their chance of overall mortality by getting the vaccine in order to decrease the chances of mortality in other age groups. It's not a simple issue.

I just found this in a bbc report.

In the UK, five cases of CSVT - one of them fatal - have been recorded among 11 million people who received the vaccine.

That’s the first time I’ve seen U.K. stats mentioned anywhere.

@womanity yes I found it as well and don't remember reading this before did it also mention ages and if men or women ?

[quote worriedatthemoment]@womanity yes I found it as well and don't remember reading this before did it also mention ages and if men or women ? [/quote]
What I quoted above was literally the full extent of it. I’m going to go google.

@TickyTok

Yes, I find it downright bizarre how personally triggered many people are on MN about denying the possibility that AZ could cause side effects. People are desperate to believe that those clots would have happened anyway or that the prevalence was actually less than in the general population and therefore AZ should be marketed as a treatment against blood clots (har har so funny, not).

Every single person who died from a clot following AZ is a human being with friends and family trying to make sense of the tragedy. They are not the butt of your jokes or a statistic being used for political revenge on the UK. Many countries both in and out of the EU have reported cases regarding clots, particularly the rare type of SVT. Germany and Canada have two of the best health systems in the world and anybody would be a fool not to take their lead seriously or at least give it some consideration.

For clarification, the latest information suggests that the vaccine triggers an autoimmune reaction that destroys platelets which causes excessive bleeding (eg aneurysms). The body may attempt to overcompensate by producing too many platelets which in turn cause clotting problems. This is why there are reports of both, and they do not contradict each other.

I can tell you thats exactly the reaction when your baby reacts to a vaccine , when all you want to do is vaccinate them and keep them safe and every door closes in your face and no one will hear you out.

I had the Astra-Zeneca and the first question asked was ‘Are you on any blood thinners?’ to which I answered ‘No’, but crucially, I was 8 years ago and I was jabbed early, so I think they’ve looked at my history of a clot (after an op, then I couldn’t walk, no wonder I got a clot, they don’t give me blood thinners til it developed) and my HMI, which is high. 😳

Hmm.

One of the five reported cases was fatal, MHRA Vaccine Safety Lead Philip Bryan said, adding that the cases were all among men aged between 19 and 59.

That’s from Reuters and completely different to Germany who are saying nearly all cases were in women.