Investigations into origins of the virus - new interview and article for those interested.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

www.hudson.org/research/16762-transcript-the-origins-of-covid-19-policy-implications-and-lessons-for-the-future

I came across the Sky News Aus video by chance on my newsfeed, then did a bit of a google on the guy being interviewed David Asher, who seems to check out credential wise rather well, as I didn't want to get lured in by a potentially dubious type.

Also checked to see if this had already been flagged on this board, and other press coverage which has been a bit lacking, cos I didn't want to start a duplicate / unhelpful thread.

I'm very curious about the origins of the virus, because my logic is that understanding this will help prevent a similar pandemic catastrophe in the future.

I chatted to my 26 Y/O DS whose opinion was firmly that the potential fallout, being political, economic, possibly even military and with potential for hate crimes against the Chinese as a whole because some people can't easily separate the people from their government in this highly volatile area would not be worth a public revelation now even if the true source can be objectively identified. I see his point, but I do think some scrutiny should happen with a view to preventing and managing any future pandemics.

So I am not posting to scare monger, and the two things I've posted show a huge effort, IMO to avoid stating certainties, but highlight a few things that have made this very problematic on many levels.

So if you have an interest I'd love to chat, and if you feel it's not relevant because bringing the pandemic as close to its end as is practical is vastly more important, which I also broadly agree with, that's obviously fine too.

Anyway, enough rambling from me!

No one has replied. So I'll bite...

There's lots of news sources on this. It was what Trumps administration were saying in early Jan before the WHO visit to the lab (which didn't find evidence, due to lack of evidence rather than an investigation into if possible).
There's more recent info here www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/03/08/josh-rogin-chaos-under-heaven-wuhan-lab-book-excerpt-474322

Sharri/Skynews/the Australian is a 2nd hand news story really. I don't think it's a scoop as such. (The Australian is a cross between The Times and The Daily mail). Australian news has definitely been pointing the finger at China for a while.

Did it start in the Wet market? I don't think anyone now thinks this and it may have been in the WHO report that the first case had no connection.
Was it here in UK before Jan- definitely.
Will we ever find out the truth- possibly. Truth probably already known... the public won't find out now if it is. The public don't know most of what goes on I would imagine. It wouldn't be in anyone's best interest to know half of what goes on internationally. Im pretty sure i don't want to know. I wouldn't sleep any better if I did. Will it help us to know if it was a lab escape? Experts in this thing...yes...the rest of us.. probably not great for the truth to widely known right now as the chaos it would cause could be catastrophic. Fear and widespread distrust.
Right now people just want this to be over .
Eventually the truth will become clearer. But may take decades.
Best thing is to just keep a really open questioning mind when told anything.

Thank you for replying

Nothing I can disagree with in what you say to be fair, and I obviously missed initial reporting.

It was nice to hear from an investigative lead with good credentials though.

Given the close relationship of Australia and China I'm not surprised tensions are running high there particularly.

For what it's worth I have my own opinions having read a fair amount on the subject (and not conspiracy websites!)... but people don't want to discuss it so I haven't. And because it makes me look like a covid-denier in many peoples eyes (and/or a nerd). It must be very upsetting if you've lost loved ones or even your livelihood to hear these things. I know someone who lost a relative in 9/11 and they struggle to hear alternative views of that.
Believing there is a novel virus/covid and also doubting the official narrative (UK and international) are not mutually exclusive. But I think the time will come when more information comes out.

I am very much in agreement again. One of the things that makes me really sad is resistance to discussion because of the Covid denial / anti vax stigma and being accused of being a conspiracy theorist.

I think processing information about an unprecedented situation such as this very much depends on open minded and evidence based discussion, and figuring out which sources are reliable and the motivations of those that aren't. But instant shutting down of awkward questions about a variety of issues today seems to be quite a trend.

I've avoided Facebook like the plague - or Covid lol - for abject fear of the pile on that can happen from people I count as friends, and also a fear of apparent insensitivity towards people who have suffered horribly or been bereaved, who quite rightly don't need anything more than the space and time to grieve in some sort of peace.

Posting here, an anonymous forum is my only real outlet for the billions of thoughts that go through my head, because I do like to deep dive pertinent issues.

So I very much appreciate your input.

The fact no one else has commented is quite telling. I've noticed over the last few months there's been a lot less critical thinking and debate on MN in general. Perhaps it was bots all along!

LOL yes, indeed - bots perhaps!

I was also a bit surprised at the lack of response but figured the pub stuff was more engaging.

Origins discussion used to entice the more scientifically minded / qualified into interesting discussion..... ah well, maybe it's not so bad if people are genuinely emerging from Covid saturation in a healthy way. I'm a bit stubborn myself, so I'll probably be still on it in ten years time

The fact no one else has commented is quite telling
I started reading this thread and then my cat furballed everywhere and I have been faffing around since.

The link above is very interesting about 2018.

TBH I don't know what did happen but I honestly think the market thing is unlikely.

I vaguely remember there being an athletics event in China in 2019. Some of the athletes felt so ill when they were there that they did not participate in their events at all.

I do think that it is pointless looking for evidence 12-18 months too late when there has been a thorough clean-up.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11845-020-02484-0

[quote StarCat2020]link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11845-020-02484-0[/quote]
I am not sure I would put much credence in a "letter to the editor" that cites insidethegames.biz and worldometers.info as its references. Nor one that has a graph with y-axis starting at -500 when they are plotting the number of cases of COVID-19 in a country (how can you have a minus number of infections?!!). I'm not sure the author knows how to create a graph, let alone a mathematical model.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure the author knows what a mathematical model is. She has come up with an equation to predict the number of cases: (4 x the number of athletes a country sent to the games)squared multiplied by a coefficient X that she has calculated and says is specific to each country and that range between 0.1-71. That's just randomly multiplying some numbers to get the answer she wants.

I am a twat.

That is not the link I meant to post at all.

Sorry

I think examining the origins of the known misinformation and looking at those that refer to it whilst most likely being aware of its dubious nature or those that fail to do any fact checking is important.

People need the knowledge to more fully understand the virus yet won't put the effort in to learn what they need.

Very interesting article thank you for posting. I’d personally love to know where this thing originated from, I don’t think we ever will though!

I don't trust a word the WHO says. I do not believe the virus originated from wet markets or bat soup. I do believe someone, somewhere was mucking about with something they shouldn't. We will never be told the truth.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

LOL yes, indeed - bots perhaps!

I was also a bit surprised at the lack of response but figured the pub stuff was more engaging.

Origins discussion used to entice the more scientifically minded / qualified into interesting discussion..... ah well, maybe it's not so bad if people are genuinely emerging from Covid saturation in a healthy way. I'm a bit stubborn myself, so I'll probably be still on it in ten years time

Ha ha yes!! People are still obsessed with JFK so I don't think you need to worry!

@Gothichouse40

I don't trust a word the WHO says. I do not believe the virus originated from wet markets or bat soup. I do believe someone, somewhere was mucking about with something they shouldn't. We will never be told the truth.

I think WHO report didnt say it wasn't the Virus institute just that it was unlikely to be the wet market. Several of those who were in the team said there was more information to be found (including a prominent Australian but I don't think the same scientist as OP). My take on this is that the information is known or at least theorised- but not for public knowledge due to international issues such as cooperation, security, trade etc. I don't know much about China and science other than what I read and I am not a scientist. From what I can gather they are very advanced in terms of scientific discovery and put considerable effort into it as a nation but, but that their ethics etc are not the same as ours. Ours would be very strictly regulated. Especially tests on animals and people. For example China would be able to get a vaccine out very quickly. AZ vaccine was created quite early in pandemic but then had to go through all the testing and safety checks we'd expect and even then was considered 'rushed'. So not a level playing field really. There is also a real need to investigate viruses of bat origin as I read there are potentially thousands. Some of which have already caused zoonotic viruses.including ebola and nipa. Bit scary but then life is not without danger so I don't give it much energy!

As a vegan, friends have said to me that the virus started in cruel wet markets and they're trying to cut down on their meat consumption. That's great for me to hear but I'm not sure I believe it started there.

I too think a lab is most logical but that governments would not want their citizens to know the truth as we would panic.

The Salisbury poisonings alone show what could happen if these things fell into the wrong hands.

Australia were bullied economically for even daring to stand up to the CCP (Chinese communist party). So many governments are scared of the CCP:

1. China owns so many foreign currency bonds that they could effectively crash whole economies by dumping them.
2. Most electorates are not aware of the real extent of how much manufacturing has been outsourced to China. It's more than just masks etc. The whole world would be in trouble if China downed tools.

So it likely was a lab leak. A lab that followed very dubious "ethics" in its gain of function experiments. The problem with government's acknowledging this is the question becomes was it deliberate, if yes was it an act of war.
www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/plague-on-both-our-houses
www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/2/4/Lieber-arrest-analysis/
www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/china-covid-lockdown-propaganda

BelleHathor
I agree with you.

Right now it is something that I want to still be ignorant of. As the implications are something that the world at the moment is in no state to deal with, and that is a step to far for my anxiety.

Last 2 OP. Absolutely agree

We are definitely not treating the planet well and anything that disrupts thinking towards consideration for the planet is a good thing. A happy side effect of the pandemic is a reduction in carbon emissions from the west for example.

Regarding the last OP. This is indeed my view and completely feasible.
Also the US were partners in some of the research (possibly UK and Europe too) so complicit in it. Even if it were just operational failures. (Useful to look up the last smallpox death on UK soil to get a parallel).
No one wants any of this to become the next 'weapons of mass destruction' saga. Running on and on with multiple enquiries etc etc....(saga not the right word but hopefully you know what I mean).
Bizarrely/coincidentally there are some positives for government from the last 12 months. Very sad for those who have lost loved ones and absolutely something which will be discussed once that is no longer a sensitive current issue/situation.
I just find the fact so few people are interested in their own critical thinking on this disappointing. Its not anti-vac or disrespecting the NHS or those who have died to challenge the official narrative (including press propaganda) even if that is in private.

Re: Salisbury poisonings... there is a major conspiracy theory on that too. And of course we don't know full story. Why would we? Just because the BBC did a drama on it.

I don't trust a word the WHO says

Donald Trump is just so much more credible than a group of the top experts in the world.

Let's just say that China is guilty of a LOT of crap. Some of it is possibly a necessity, other bits approach Hitler level evilness.

But as a medical researcher who closely followed the emergence of this virus it's not really credible to suggest there was a conspiracy. Multiple international research teams groups have declared that the virus is natural. All of the initial cases were linked to the Wuhan wet markets - at the time the virus was barely able to jump H2H - individuals in households were getting infected, but no other members of their households were catching it. If it had emerged from a laboratory, it would have needed to be easily H2H transmittable in order to spread.

You could clearly see when it mutated into a contagious form by the exponential growth in cases from this point.

In short, ALL of the evidence points solely towards natural emergence and infection starting in the wet markets.

On the other hand, you have an administration that had completely fucked up their handling of the crisis. They were warned repeatedly by The WHO in January and told to take action and they did nothing. The CDC tried to get Washington to act sooner, but to no avail. When the seriousness of it all began, it was politically crucial to deflect the blame and what better way to do it that blame China?

@NewYearNewTwatName

BelleHathor I agree with you.

Right now it is something that I want to still be ignorant of. As the implications are something that the world at the moment is in no state to deal with, and that is a step to far for my anxiety.

💐 The real truth doesn't bear thinking of. Take care of yourself and your health, we have all been subject to some of the worst assault on our psyches in the last year. I still believe that there are "good guys" out there x.

Former CDC director believes virus came from lab in China CNN International
Interview from yesterday in America
m.youtube.com/watch?v=p45MtnlKhdI

I just find the fact so few people are interested in their own critical thinking on this disappointing. Its not anti-vac or disrespecting the NHS or those who have died to challenge the official narrative (including press propaganda) even if that is in private.
I liken it to the "The Truman Show". We lived in a carefully curated "safe" world before C19. Eat, sleep, work, play. The reality of that world is supported by narratives in the MSM, Films, TV and social media. Its a comfortable ignorance. Questioning that reality can take you out of your comfort zone and to confront some very dark possibilities. Some people will stay in comfortable ignorance as it is safe. Whereas others will want to find the edge of where the constructed world ends and reality exists as ugly as it may be.