Investigations into origins of the virus - new interview and article for those interested.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

www.hudson.org/research/16762-transcript-the-origins-of-covid-19-policy-implications-and-lessons-for-the-future

I came across the Sky News Aus video by chance on my newsfeed, then did a bit of a google on the guy being interviewed David Asher, who seems to check out credential wise rather well, as I didn't want to get lured in by a potentially dubious type.

Also checked to see if this had already been flagged on this board, and other press coverage which has been a bit lacking, cos I didn't want to start a duplicate / unhelpful thread.

I'm very curious about the origins of the virus, because my logic is that understanding this will help prevent a similar pandemic catastrophe in the future.

I chatted to my 26 Y/O DS whose opinion was firmly that the potential fallout, being political, economic, possibly even military and with potential for hate crimes against the Chinese as a whole because some people can't easily separate the people from their government in this highly volatile area would not be worth a public revelation now even if the true source can be objectively identified. I see his point, but I do think some scrutiny should happen with a view to preventing and managing any future pandemics.

So I am not posting to scare monger, and the two things I've posted show a huge effort, IMO to avoid stating certainties, but highlight a few things that have made this very problematic on many levels.

So if you have an interest I'd love to chat, and if you feel it's not relevant because bringing the pandemic as close to its end as is practical is vastly more important, which I also broadly agree with, that's obviously fine too.

Anyway, enough rambling from me!

@notrub I seem to recall though investigators finding examples that pre-dated the wet market but I can't remember where I read that. Does anyone else remember?

I’m curious about the origin question and have also noted that MN posters have taken more of an interest in following epidemiological trends as the pandemic evolves rather than discussing initiating factors.

There is not much in the mainstream media on this topic and I have wondered why there has not been more of a sustained outcry about the WHO’s ‘investigation’. It does seem dodgy. One member of the investigating team had financial ties to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The team went to Wuhan over a year after the outbreak started and only looked at summaries of findings that had been produced by Chinese scientists. They did not have access to raw data or the freedom to perform independent analyses. Waste water samples for the critical period had apparently been disposed of. It was also not possible to test blood bank samples as this was ‘against the law’.

It certainly looks as if the outbreak's origins are being deliberately cloaked in secrecy by the Chinese government.

I’ve been following the Youtube channel of Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, two evolutionary biologists interested in the origin of the virus. They have discussed various aspects of the case such as the paper in Nature that seems to - erroneously in their opinion - dismiss the possibility of a lab leak.

A detail I find rather intriguing is that the head of the Wuhan Institute has said in an interview that no one at all at the institute got the virus. A recent study has shown an antibody prevalence of around 5% in Wuhan as a whole. It is mysterious that the institute would not see any employees catching the virus - even from outside the institute - assuming they are not completely cut off from the surrounding region and that the lab is of a reasonable size, as it appears to be from photos.

If there actually was a lab leak, I would personally be happy for an amnesty to be offered to China in exchange for an independent international team being given unrestricted access to all data, sites, materials and people of interest so that governments round the world can figure out what measures need to be taken to minimise the risk of similar outbreaks in the future.

I am not sure how many people would agree with me in letting China off the hook but I feel it would be worth it for the knowledge gained.

BelleHathor you might be pleased to know that President Biden is planning to increase semiconductor chip manufacturing in the US, to reduce dependence on China and that region.

Thanks for all the contributions

Most interesting.

@BelleHathor

Yes indeed to your last post.

My nearests and dearests fluctuate massively whenever I bring up things like this or other social issues that I think might be of interest / important. Sometimes there will be an interesting debate, but more often I get a variation on "Well, nothing we can do about it" and encouragement to step away from the internet and focus on more "domestic" concerns. I do try and limit myself somewhat, but am worried that people are withdrawing more and more from things they don't understand fully, and with right to protest coming under pressure, and more "thorough" police powers being called for, I fully understand why people are worried we're sleepwalking into a "Brave New World" . Often we don't even realise the consequences of various legislation until you personally come up against it in my experience.

As to the origins of the virus, I realise many qualified people have evidenced it to be naturally occurring, and my main stumbling block to accepting that is the HUGE coincidence of the wet market being in such close proximity to the lab. If the lab wasn't there, I could accept this far more easily.

And I do have the conversation with myself "Why would they do that? If it was an accident, why cover it up when it's going to have a worldwide impact?" And all I can think of is disaster capitalism - never let a good crisis go to waste.

I am so awfully cynical about the motivations and shenanigans that governments and corporations can engage in for reasons that seem utterly unreasonable to the average person.

The mere fact that corporations can sue a government for interfering in their desire to profit from their operations in a country blew my mind.

OutwiththeOutCrowd I'd been listening to Heying and Weinstein.

Interesting question op. It is so far beyond the ordinary person's locus of control that I can see why it doesn't generate much discussion.

coincidence of the wet market being in such close proximity to the lab. If the lab wasn't there, I could accept this far more easily.

Totally agree. How many coincidences do you need before it is no longer a coincidence?!

[quote AppleJane]@notrub I seem to recall though investigators finding examples that pre-dated the wet market but I can't remember where I read that. Does anyone else remember? [/quote]
There was a flurry of attention around this last year - eg they claimed to find traces of it in a sewage sample somewhere (can't remember where), from November I think... but then the reports all dried up. I suspect sample contamination was likely to blame.

The trouble here is that the media is terribly quick to seize on scientific findings, LONG before the scientific community is ready - when as so often happens (remember cold-fusion? Faster than light particles?) the research turns out to be flawed, THAT doesn't get reported.

Remember the first infections weren't H2H transmittable, so it's possible that cases started much earlier with people picking it up in the market, but only being mildly ill - wasn't until the first serious case that hospitals noticed this was different. So a handful of earlier cases, all originating from Wuhan is possible.

Not really important - if any of these cases HAD been the H2H transmittable mutation then the case numbers would have escalated sooner - we don't see that in the data.

@OutwiththeOutCrowd

I’m curious about the origin question and have also noted that MN posters have taken more of an interest in following epidemiological trends as the pandemic evolves rather than discussing initiating factors.

There is not much in the mainstream media on this topic and I have wondered why there has not been more of a sustained outcry about the WHO’s ‘investigation’. It does seem dodgy. One member of the investigating team had financial ties to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The team went to Wuhan over a year after the outbreak started and only looked at summaries of findings that had been produced by Chinese scientists. They did not have access to raw data or the freedom to perform independent analyses. Waste water samples for the critical period had apparently been disposed of. It was also not possible to test blood bank samples as this was ‘against the law’.

It certainly looks as if the outbreak's origins are being deliberately cloaked in secrecy by the Chinese government.

I’ve been following the Youtube channel of Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, two evolutionary biologists interested in the origin of the virus. They have discussed various aspects of the case such as the paper in Nature that seems to - erroneously in their opinion - dismiss the possibility of a lab leak.

A detail I find rather intriguing is that the head of the Wuhan Institute has said in an interview that no one at all at the institute got the virus. A recent study has shown an antibody prevalence of around 5% in Wuhan as a whole. It is mysterious that the institute would not see any employees catching the virus - even from outside the institute - assuming they are not completely cut off from the surrounding region and that the lab is of a reasonable size, as it appears to be from photos.

If there actually was a lab leak, I would personally be happy for an amnesty to be offered to China in exchange for an independent international team being given unrestricted access to all data, sites, materials and people of interest so that governments round the world can figure out what measures need to be taken to minimise the risk of similar outbreaks in the future.

I am not sure how many people would agree with me in letting China off the hook but I feel it would be worth it for the knowledge gained.

I’ve been following the Youtube channel of Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying

Two pseudoscientists, totally discredited by the scientific establishment for ridiculous claims, who now work as far-right political activists.

I suspect Icke is probably in your YT favourites too.

What can I say - Garbage in, Garbage out...

Are you saying that the lab leak hypothesis should be dismissed or is unworthy of further investigation?

I think calling them far right politically is a misrepresentation but hey ho it's an opinion.

@PerkingFaintly

BelleHathor you might be pleased to know that President Biden is planning to increase semiconductor chip manufacturing in the US, to reduce dependence on China and that region.

I had heard about TSMC a Taiwanese company investing 12 billion last year under Trump. www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/19/1001902/tsmc-chip-plant-and-huawei-export-ban-not-trump-win/ If Biden is continuing this it is excellent, the five eyes countries along with India, Japan, Taiwan and Korea need to urgently diversify their production corridors.

I would like to know the origins of the virus. I agree with PP that it is likely that it is known and the general public won’t ever be told.

@MistressoftheDarkSide It's very difficult, the comfortable ignorance is extremely safe. Journalism has also changed so much in the last 20 years from fighting to get the story first, using actual sources to almost all parroting the same narratives and reporting opinions as fact. Those who grew up with that dirty truthful kind of Journalism can almost feel today like we are being gaslit. The art of questioning everything and forming your own opinion is lost. This is exacerbated by the fact that society is so tribal now.

The Biden move is new, not merely a continuation of Asian companies deciding to manufacture in the US.

They're carrying out an assessment of the full supply chain, with the aim of making the US less dependent on Asia as a region (not just China) as a source of key electronics – because as Covid has shown, when something happens in the region in which sources are concentrated, it has a worldwide impact.

I think Europe should be following with something similar.

I've been concerned about lack of diversification of sources for a while: too many eggs in one basket; too much loss of expertise and manufacturing capacity outside the basket. Shown up by the UK govt's PPE plan c2019 being: "When a pandemic hits the globe, we'll import the goods we need from East Asia." Um, so, this will be an Asia magically not hit by the pandemic, then...? Carried by shipping also not hit by the pandemic...?

That's excellent Perking I have been extremely worried that Biden would pivot back to China (a lot of corporations love the cheap labour, lack of workers rights).

Unfortunately the EU seemed to want closer ties to the CCP and were in the early stages of negotiating a trade deal. Luckily there may be a spanner in the works edition.cnn.com/2021/03/24/economy/china-eu-investment-deal-sanctions-intl-hnk/index.html

Boris also tried to pivot last week and was quickly handed his arse by some Tories.

Yes to the loss of skills and expertise. It's quite logical that in times of great threat countries will act in their own self interest, hence the CCP via proxies buying masks and PPE in late 2019 www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-backed-company-s-mission-to-source-australian-medical-supplies-20200325-p54du8.html.

Unfortunately a lot of the governing class seem to be idiots with a lack of foresight.

P.S. if one good thing can come from this it will be a realignment away from the CCP. The economic pressure will hopefully help free the Uighur, Hongkongers, Taiwanese and Chinese people who want freedom.

A close relationship can be a good thing, and can happen without a country, bloc or area being the sole supplier of strategically essential resources.

I'm very pleased to see this review of the supply chain. Come to think of it, though the US-conducted review will of course be US-focused, it will probably be very informative for the UK and all other countries, and a good starting place for our own reviews.

@OutwiththeOutCrowd

I’m curious about the origin question and have also noted that MN posters have taken more of an interest in following epidemiological trends as the pandemic evolves rather than discussing initiating factors.

There is not much in the mainstream media on this topic and I have wondered why there has not been more of a sustained outcry about the WHO’s ‘investigation’. It does seem dodgy. One member of the investigating team had financial ties to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The team went to Wuhan over a year after the outbreak started and only looked at summaries of findings that had been produced by Chinese scientists. They did not have access to raw data or the freedom to perform independent analyses. Waste water samples for the critical period had apparently been disposed of. It was also not possible to test blood bank samples as this was ‘against the law’.

It certainly looks as if the outbreak's origins are being deliberately cloaked in secrecy by the Chinese government.

I’ve been following the Youtube channel of Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, two evolutionary biologists interested in the origin of the virus. They have discussed various aspects of the case such as the paper in Nature that seems to - erroneously in their opinion - dismiss the possibility of a lab leak.

A detail I find rather intriguing is that the head of the Wuhan Institute has said in an interview that no one at all at the institute got the virus. A recent study has shown an antibody prevalence of around 5% in Wuhan as a whole. It is mysterious that the institute would not see any employees catching the virus - even from outside the institute - assuming they are not completely cut off from the surrounding region and that the lab is of a reasonable size, as it appears to be from photos.

If there actually was a lab leak, I would personally be happy for an amnesty to be offered to China in exchange for an independent international team being given unrestricted access to all data, sites, materials and people of interest so that governments round the world can figure out what measures need to be taken to minimise the risk of similar outbreaks in the future.

I am not sure how many people would agree with me in letting China off the hook but I feel it would be worth it for the knowledge gained.

I too am curious about how all this started and I read an excellent thing yesterday, which I thought I would share:

"Just imagine if a strange new virus emerged suddenly in Salisbury, with residents of the medieval Wiltshire town starting to cough, develop high fevers and die. Soon the hospital wards are over-flowing with sick patients, scores of doctors and nurses develop the symptoms, then the disease starts to crop up in other countries. Within weeks the entire planet is engulfed by a pandemic with millions dying and economic chaos. Finally it emerges scientists at nearby Porton Down had been carrying out risky research on similar diseases from bats, working on samples taken from their roosting sites hundreds of miles away in the Scottish highlands.

There would be justified suspicions over the secretive laboratory, especially given its defence links. We would expect intense media and political scrutiny since we live in a democracy, even if many prominent scientists argued forcefully that zoonotic diseases tend to cross over naturally from animals. But just think about the furore if it also emerged Porton Down had taken offline a database containing its samples and viral sequences weeks before the deaths began. And that the government lied about dates of early cases, forced doctors to stay silent on the outbreak, threatened to prosecute experts for espionage if they shared information, and failed to pass critical information to global health authorities.

All these events took place in China in this pandemic..."

See: inews.co.uk/opinion/china-lab-leak-inquiy-government-veto-safety-1120459

Ha the joys of menopause..... saw the thread title on my tablet and thought "ooh a new article...." then saw it was a thread I started ...... on a side note doesn't March seem such a long time ago? I am beginning to think a pandemic Side effect is warping our concept of time......

But interesting piece @patkinney thank you...... this is just rumbling on and on and we are none the wiser it seems..... I'm still curious though!!!