Is life never going back to normal?

[JuneMoonstone]

I feel incredibly lucky that I've lived 44 years of a normal life. I am heartbroken at the way life has become. Like so many others, I feel like I am existing, not living. I don't see any point in making plans, I don't feel any hope for the future. I was feeling quite positive about the progress made in the UK with vaccines and seeing the infection rates and death rates lower. However with the news about the rest of Europe going into lockdown due to escalating infection rates, I can't help but feel that we are never going to get out of this bloody mess. I cannot help but believe that we will have to live our lives under constant restrictions forever now because of this virus. Is life really going to be shit from now on? Will I ever be able to, for example, go into a busy pub on a Friday night and watch a live band and have a bloody good time again? Will we have to wear face masks permanently in public places from now on? I get a very strong feeling that this will be the case. It's my daughter I feel for the most. She's just 5 years old. What kind of a life is she going to have?

[quote Radio4Rocks]@MarshaBradyo

We’ll accept a level of deaths (like flu every year) and move on

Of course we won't. Don't be so ridiculous. You might but fortunately there are people with compassion and an understanding of science and they will prevail. Prevail against those who want to go to the pub or to Benidorm and more dead people is a cheap price to pay. They were probably sick or old so don't really matter, eh?

Dreadful attitude.[/quote]
There have always been deaths associated with flu even though we have an annual flu programme, during the 2017/18 season 26,408 deaths were attributed to flu, no-one suggested that this warrented us living differently to avoid passing the flu virus on, why do you think Covid will be different? I agree with MarshaBradyo I think we will eventually see this in a similar way as flu.

@GoldenOmber

Who would be willing to see how things go if all restrictions were lifted?

I think most people would see this as linked to vaccine rollout.

The loudest and most extreme voices always come to prominence on the internet and in the media. So the “vaccines don’t matter, masks forever, no parties ever again” camp battle it out with the “vaccines aren’t needed, scrap all restrictions today and live with the massive death toll” camp.

In reality, most of the population is in the middle. Willing to go along with lockdowns, but not forever. Not making a big drama about masks, but not planning to wear them until 2078 either. Willing to wait until vaccines are rolled out before getting back to normal, not willing to wait forever.

I suspect at this point you’ll say something like “well it doesn’t matter what people WANT, they will need to accept what HAS to happen.” But that’s not how we decide public health or any other trade-offs in a democracy.

What Interesting points you’ve made.

I too am in the middle, I want things to return to the before. I’m also pragmatic about the journey to get there and how unrealistic expectations will only make it harder to endure.

@Arrrrggghh This has only ever been about saving the NHS in the U.K., not saving lives

Has it though? Is it though?

I agree NHS appears to be it's top priority.

I hope that come Sept, it has made itself better equipped to cope. Covid is here to stay. It needs to have adapted accordingly.

[quote applesandoranges221]@pinkearedcow It's really not.

And if you think Boris Johnson, Priti Patel et al are well intentioned then I'm not really sure what to say to that I'm afraid. Remember that in general the rise of totalitarianism doesn't start with the extremes of concentration camps etc - it starts with identification of an enemy which the government are going to keep you safe from - in some ways the virus is even more perfect for this than an identified group of people because no one thinks "well I know so and so and they're not like that" and builds from there.

I would desperately like to be wrong and for the government to restore civil liberties and end their current level of power voluntarily, but I don't see this as likely. Hence, whenever there is something that might bring an end to restrictions, like a vaccine, we get BUT NO BECAUSE THIS.

I would be willing to bet my home that in fact it will take significant civil unrest to do so - which is the worst solution to any problem.[/quote]
@applesandoranges221 I never said anything about Johnson and Patel et al being well intentioned! What I did say is that there is no benefit to the government in prolonging lockdown with no need and that it needs us out there, earning and spending. If the government wanted to keep lockdown, why did it lift the first one we had last year? Why didn't it just keep going with it?

Remember that in general the rise of totalitarianism doesn't start with the extremes of concentration camps etc

We are not sleepwalking into totalitarianism. Johnson is a libertarian and a bigger state interfering in the minutiae of people's lives on a permanent basis is the very opposite of what he believes in. Those on the right of his own party want it all to end asap.

The pandemic will end. Lockdown will end.

merryhouse

The Spanish flu was over in 2.5 years.
If we had let Covid go through the community we would have had approximately 600,000 deaths.

We have already had 125000 deaths and that is just from Covid. Over the coming years I think that taking into account Covid and all the things it and lockdowns have affected I wouldn’t be surprised that we don’t reach that figure. Even with the vaccine I think all we have done is turned it into a protracted illness that will linger for years,

My ggf died of Spanish Flu. He ran a bar and I remember talking to my gf about it. Ggf’s bar never shut. Neither did any other bars or shops. The only reason anything was shut was because the owner was really ill and couldn’t get out of bed to open up or had died. He never mentioned masks or any sort of protection. He said he was surprised that his father hadn’t caught it sooner as he was in close contact with his customers everyday.
My gf said as his mother wasn’t allowed to run the bar because she was a woman they lost everything and ended up on the streets. The house came with the bar and it got taken over by his uncle who threw them out.

@JuneMoonstone

Thank you for all your replies. I'm struggling to come to terms with it all, even after all this time. What I don't understand is that there have been pandemics in the past such as Spanish Flu, but they lasted for a limited period of time and then they ended and life resumed as normal. What is it about Covid 19 that makes it different from all the other pandemics in the past, in that our way of living will be changed permanently? Why is there the liklihood that we will have to wear face coverings for many years to come when this wasn't the case for the Spanish flu? Is it because we are being prepped for another pandemic that is expected to arrive imminently, so that social distancing and face coverings become the norm? Do I need to just accept that from now on, whenever I go into a shop, any public space or when I take my child to school, that I need to wear a face covering? Do I need to give up the hope of ever going to the theatre again? Will I ever be able to shake someone's hand again, unless they are a member of my immediate family?

Strictly speaking, the Spanish flu hasn't exactly ended. It's mutated into the flu, as we know it today. It had an extremely high death rate, especially amongst children and wiped entire communities out. So it mutated over time, which meant it became less lethal, allowing easier and more widespread transmission (by killing the host, it couldn't spread further). So it hasn't ended, it's just changed. I read this in a journal about a month ago, if anyone wants it for reference, I will try and find it.

cheesecakesunflowers but the ‘normal’ flu virus has no long term after affects. You get it, Ill for a few days, get better, then back to normal. Covid has long term issues for a lot of people, and we dont yet know how these issues will affect people’s health long term. There’s already people with lung issues, and not always just the elderly, where their life will change long term as a result of having had covid. Potentially we’re sitting on a time bomb, and need to know a lot more about these long term issues before we brush it off as no different to normal flu.

@XenoBitch

Not much help I know, but the pessimist in me says we wont go back to how things were... so many people happy to live in this "new normal" and have to undergo a medical procedure to get their rights back. It makes me feel sick if I think about it too much.

Sorry, what “medical procedure “ are people having to undergo?

Do you mean the vaccine? Bit of a drama ridden exaggeration to call it a medical procedure!

'the ‘normal’ flu virus has no long term after affects'? not the same as Covid no but there can be issues and complications. This is common knowledge I thought.

during the 2017/18 season 26,408 deaths were attributed to flu, no-one suggested that this warrented us living differently to avoid passing the flu virus on, why do you think Covid will be different?

Because even with lockdowns and restrictions, we've had 125,000 deaths in a year. That tends to suggest that the scientists' projections of half a million deaths without restrictions/lockdowns could have been pretty accurate.

So, half a million deaths in a year is nothing like 26,408 deaths in a normal "flu" year is it?

I hope that come Sept, it has made itself better equipped to cope. Covid is here to stay. It needs to have adapted accordingly.

I’m not sure how much the nhs can better equip itself? Doctors, etc have certainly learnt how to treat covid patients better. But they’re not going to have extra trained staff or wards/bed spaces by Sept. Those sort of things take time (years of training) and money.

I don’t believe the govt are chucking more money at the nhs with a plan to increase the workforce or extend hospitals? It’s all very reactive rather than proactive.

I suppose the govt are banking on the vaccine roll out and that by Sept there won’t be a need for the nhs to be better equipped. Let’s hope they’re right. There was a staffing crisis in the nhs before covid and it’s even worse now....I don’t see anything being done to combat that!

I got post viral syndrome from 'normal' flu. Not at all uncommon. Many get it from other viral infections, glandular fever in particular. For the most part they've been fobbed off once they get this ME/CFS diagnoses, told it's all in their heads, they need to get 'graded exercise' (now we're finding out this is bad advice, duh), mindfulness their way out of it, all sorts.

But it's different now it's 'long Covid'.

@Kazzyhoward

during the 2017/18 season 26,408 deaths were attributed to flu, no-one suggested that this warrented us living differently to avoid passing the flu virus on, why do you think Covid will be different?

Because even with lockdowns and restrictions, we've had 125,000 deaths in a year. That tends to suggest that the scientists' projections of half a million deaths without restrictions/lockdowns could have been pretty accurate.

So, half a million deaths in a year is nothing like 26,408 deaths in a normal "flu" year is it?

Honestly some people only see what they want to see. They think 24k deaths to flu isn’t bad so what’s another 125k to Covid as long as they can go to the pub and fly off on holiday 🤯

irishmamamia nowhere near the same as Covid. I’ve had normal flu at least 3 times in my life, and the symptoms can be brutal when yoare in middle of having it. I’ve made full recoveries each time, as have other people in my family and social circle. No long term affects. But I know people who have had covid, and most are suffering from symptoms months later.

@Kazzyhoward

during the 2017/18 season 26,408 deaths were attributed to flu, no-one suggested that this warrented us living differently to avoid passing the flu virus on, why do you think Covid will be different?

Because even with lockdowns and restrictions, we've had 125,000 deaths in a year. That tends to suggest that the scientists' projections of half a million deaths without restrictions/lockdowns could have been pretty accurate.

So, half a million deaths in a year is nothing like 26,408 deaths in a normal "flu" year is it?

You’re arguing a different point though. That’s what would have happened if we’d let it go without vaccines. Much worse than seasonal flu. But after vaccine rollout, there will come a point where its death toll is no worse than seasonal flu. So then - why would we live differently to avoid passing covid risk on, when we didn’t do that for flu risk?

We will go back to normal eventually, when is hard to envisage. There's several factors really.

Public tolerance, currently tolerance for lockdowns are waning, as you spoke of the Spanish flu, etc. There were lockdowns, but they were never respected to the degree coronavirus lockdowns are.

We have better social security now, furlough and grants. In those days support wasn't as great and until the money basically runs out or the market's say, NO MORE MONEY. The government will have to make a decision. At that point there will be a shift, think Brazil, they simply cannot afford to lockdown as we do. Due to poverty etc

Boomers, largely control our government, therefore they are currently serving that generations interests mainly. They are the ones generally most at risk from coronavirus. As more die their voting power decreases.

New variants emerging, truth be told, I feel we haven't made much ground. We have now created new supply chains and beefed up the vaccine industry. This helps for new variants coming along.

However as current vaccines are only 50% or so effective against the SA variant, you can be sure we haven't seen the end of this yet. We need to boosters administered over summer before winter, which seems highly unlikely. How effective are the vaccines also in the real world, we cannot be sure.

@willibald

I got post viral syndrome from 'normal' flu. Not at all uncommon. Many get it from other viral infections, glandular fever in particular. For the most part they've been fobbed off once they get this ME/CFS diagnoses, told it's all in their heads, they need to get 'graded exercise' (now we're finding out this is bad advice, duh), mindfulness their way out of it, all sorts.

But it's different now it's 'long Covid'.

You need to do some research into how bad long covid can be and the potential cost to the NHS long term before you start the one.

Honestly some people only see what they want to see. They think 24k deaths to flu isn’t bad so what’s another 125k to Covid as long as they can go to the pub and fly off on holiday 🤯

You are getting muddied. Think about number of deaths to Covid after vaccination roll out

Florida and their lack of restrictions does give some insight

It does indeed - especially considering the demographics in terms of age and obesity

The main thing that's different about this disease is that we aren't used to dying

Another "spot on" moment - but add to that the presence of social media and 24/7 rolling news

You need to do some research into how bad long covid can be and the potential cost to the NHS long term before you start the one.

Start the what? Post viral syndrome hasn't cost the NHS before this and can't possible be as bad as long Covid? Right. I guess, though, from my experience of it, it's not cost the NHS because so many with it have been fobbed off for decades. Currently there's a drive on to get them off pain medications because those are just addictive. Some mindfulness apps can magic the pain away.

It won’t be tlike this forever. The spanish flu pandemic is the closest recent historic event that is similar - that latest around 2 years. I personally think we’ll be under restrictions of some deacription for the restvof this year but once next winter is over, it will start getting back to what we knew previously. Foreign holidays this year should be a big no no for everyone. We are making such good progress, we can’t risk letting variants that are resistant to our vaccines into the country

of course it will.

Epidemics/pandemics have happened all through history we got back to 'normal' after spanish flu, black death, collera, sweate fever and others and we will after this too.

It is indeed likely that long term we will have covid as a background issue, without briefing and info on daily rates etc.

The problem is people are trying to move to this 'long term' position now, we are miles away from this place.

Clearly we will be pretty buggered if the most worrying variants get established in the UK this year. The P1 variant in particular is looking very serious.

@Kazzyhoward

during the 2017/18 season 26,408 deaths were attributed to flu, no-one suggested that this warrented us living differently to avoid passing the flu virus on, why do you think Covid will be different?

Because even with lockdowns and restrictions, we've had 125,000 deaths in a year. That tends to suggest that the scientists' projections of half a million deaths without restrictions/lockdowns could have been pretty accurate.

So, half a million deaths in a year is nothing like 26,408 deaths in a normal "flu" year is it?

Yes, without lockdowns it would have been far worse as we didn't have vaccines a year ago. If we didn't have annual flu vaccines for the those with medical conditions and over 65's how many would die each year? Half a million? Who knows. I agree we need restrictions until the vaccine roll out has reached all adults but once that has happened then I think the vaccine protection should replace the need for restrictions. Observations will be made to access what sort of vaccine programme needs to be implemented going forward, do we vaccinate everyone every year, or just the most vulnerable, will the vaccine protection last 6 months, a year or indefinately, this all needs to be established. The point about long Covid is fair enough but I still think that expecting people to live with these restrictions for ever is not going to happen.

@mam0918

of course it will.

Epidemics/pandemics have happened all through history we got back to 'normal' after spanish flu, black death, collera, sweate fever and others and we will after this too.

Not sure if this is supposed to be cheery or doomy?