EU threatening to cut off supply of vaccines to UK

[Iremembertheelderlykoreanlady]

Because they've not got enough apparently (despite the fact that they've got a shit load of AZ stockpiled because they've mostly stopped using it)

This is really starting to piss me off now, and has someone who is due 2nd Pfizer jab in 8 weeks in starting to worry I won't get it!

They're threatening to stop supply to USA too.

Wankers

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ursula-von-der-leyen-threatens-cut-off-covid-exports-uk-b924652.html

I could understand the EU position a bit better if they were USING the vaccines that they have sitting in fridges.

We vaccinated over 844,000 people in the UK yesterday. That doesn't happen by accident. That happens because the system is working, and we're being encouraged to get the job. Professionals & volunteers are working like crazy to get the vaccines INTO ARMS.

The EU has enough vaccine in fridges to have vaccinated more than that yesterday. But they didn't. Why is that?

Partly because their leaders have been dithering over safety, and which age to give AZ to - which doesn't help vaccine uptake.

And now, because we're doing a good job, they want to slow down our vaccine program so they can put more vaccine in their fridges.

The trust from the big pharmaceutical companies with Europe is being hit at the same time vaccines here to stay for years. The UK and US paid in money, research and development to have strong contracts. The EU paid per dose for many and have the contracts that come with that.

I am beginning to see the problem.

Germany have had some serious riots and clashes in the last few days that include the far right. They are absolutely furious about the vaccine and now facing more restrictions. I can see that the countries that are seeing a huge backlash may well want to do all they can to try and salvage the situation (I don't agree with the way they are doing it, but I can see why they feel that way)
Germany and others are now facing the prospect of giving their people the Russian vaccine, which I am pretty sure is going to come up against some strong resistance. Many people just will not trust it, and trust it even less than AZ. Even if the vaccines poured in today, it would still take several weeks to even get through the vulnerable and elderly.

So I can see they are now facing some very serious problems, the lashing out is because they feel helpless to stop the third wave now.
Germans particularly expect better. The elections are in September. This could be a game changer politically, there could be a huge upset to the way things have always been.

I don't condone the hostility and aggression, but I do understand it.

I would also say the picture is far bleaker than the stats suggest, as many countries in the EU can not afford/simply do not have the testing facilities of bigger nations. Poland for example is overwhelmed with covid at the moment, but you may not think so looking at the 21,000 infections recorded. That is because you can't get a test, even when you are ill. Hospitals have been buckling there for weeks, again largely unreported. The EU will know that on the ground things are far far worse than they appear, and are only going in one direction.

@Motorina

Boris to phone EU leaders in bid to stop export ban: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56479814

It does sound like the Halix factory is the issue. I'm guessing there should be 10 million doses coming from there to the UK, which Ox/Az does not think it will be able to send. I'm guessing that number, because that's the number which suddenly were allocated from the Indian supply chain. I think they're backfilling.

If that is the case, then all this is for 10 million doses. Enough to make a meaningful difference in the UK. Not enough to even be noticed in the much larger EU population (particularly not if they sit on shelves due to vaccine-hesitancy).

So all this noise is about distracting blame. I knew politicians - both sides! - are largely self-serving bastards, but this really takes the biscuit.

You are spot on and think az / uk government known this for weeks. Explains the exactly 10million order from Italy because I think our az contact said the 2 uk factories were uk supply chain only and the 2 eu ones or very least the Netherlands one as we helped set that one up and funded it as they had issues with yeild. Our contact says if our sites have a shortfall then az look elsewhere which Explains indias serum institute which in sure wasent part of our original supply chain at all.

The eu issue is they claim thier contact gives them rights to uk factories that think it doesn't as uk is not part of eu.
They had best efforts contract
Why does it take so long months to authorise halix in Netherlands.
I don't know much about pharmaceutical I assume its not a stop start process so continuous production and we think its been more successful than Belgium site.
So if they producing OK and not sending to UK or EU who are they sending as to?
Eu only raided the Belgium factory to check orders and exports.
There may well be a large stock pile of az sat at Netherlands factory that az intend to block whatever there is all thiers.

Then there's issues of flexibility band confidence.
Some member states suspended it still ie sweden.
Age groups lots haven't used it for elderly so saying about 70 or 80 year old not had jab in Europe is not relevant to az.
Some member states restricted ages against EMA guidelines.
Even Merkel and macron saying they have AZ themselves i don't think will sway people surprised Merkel given her age haven't already had the jab.
Then there's logistics here we vaccinate at pharmacy, nass vaccination centres and GPS so they need to look at logistics of mass vaccination.

I am not sure Biden is sharing usa az out of goodness of his heart they stockpiling 10million doses so it doesn't go out of date.
I wonder how close the eu stockpiles are to thier expiry date.
Just like food theres dates and they have to date rotate so use the vaccines at back if fridge so to speak before demanding new ones.
There does seem to be disparity with 27 states how much vaccines each one has.
Ireland i understand has been offered help by uk but said no as trying be local to eu maybe Biden can gift them too.

I think our main worry really is pfizer and moderna.
If they do I don't know what will happen next.
They claim we have current ban on component vaccines which is untrue as croda is keeping yo its pfizer contract.
Would they only ban exports to uk or other countries.
When will Australia get their doses?
Mexico and Canada must be so relived USA are helping short term.

Why does it take so long months to authorise halix in Netherlands.

Halix is part of the UK supply chain and I am sure it will be specifically mentioned in the UK contract either with AZ or Oxford.

The UK has a much better contract than the EU (well we did actually build the butchers shop and stock it).

If AZ supplies EU from Halix what does that mean for the UK contract. You know the one that ties AZ's hands.

Whilst there is no EU approval then no deliveries can be made to EU.......

@Itsalonghaul I think that's true, sadly. I was looking at the figures last week (ourworldindata, I think?) and positivity rates in some Eastern European countries are around 50%, suggesting that the known case rate is only the tip of the iceberg.

(Incidentally, this is why comparing fatality data across the bloc is a non-starter. So much variability on detection rates. But that's by the by.)

It is a truly horrific situation.

@3asAbird

According to link above looks like we were ahead on contracts for all of them.

Baffled if valneva is French why EU not placed orders.

I know Biden not our greatest fan but I think he would get involved if they start seizing vaccines from American firms.
They had exploratory talks with valneva and norovax in December.
Its now nearly April.
Has the EMA not approved janson yet?

@3asAbird, this is the second time you've suggested that President Biden has some sort of animus towards the UK. I've observed his political career for decades and never seen any indication of this whatsoever. And his ancestry is Irish. What are you basing this on?

If AZ supplies EU from Halix what does that mean for the UK contract. You know the one that ties AZ's hands.

I think (and this is speculation - we don't even know for sure that Halix was intended for the UK supply chain) this is why Indian doses were suddenly being brought into the UK. As you say, Az has a duty to meet those contracts, so is bringing in supplies from India to fill the potential deficit due to the situation with the EU.

If that is so then, in a roundabout way, the EU's position is reducing supply in India and surrounding countries.

I asked this upthread, and still am not sure. What happens to embargoed doses? I can see that it is relatively straightforward for the EU to forbid private companies to export goods. But that doesn't mean that the EU gains ownership of those goods.

A few weeks ago, case-numbers in my local Royal Mail sorting office meant that my lovely post-lady couldn't get out to me for a couple of weeks. My parcels just sat in the sorting office til normal service resumed. The state didn't seize control of them just because their delivery was blocked.

Are we going to end up in a situation where exports are blocked, so vaccine just sits in a warehouse til it goes out of date? There's at least a suggestion there's UK-intended vaccine gently aging in Halix as is. Do the contracts allow Az to effectively refund and resell? Would they do so, given the likely contract-law headaches that might bring? There is, after all, a defence to not fulfilling your contract if you can't legally do so, but that defence weakens if part of the reason for the non-fulfillment is "And then we flogged the stuff to another buyer".

Or are the EU going to requisition private property from a private company? Because the long-term ramifications of that are likely to be messy.

@HeddaGarbled no one is being selfish people are stating the facts as they are , we have hardly fully vaccinated anyone we have a large gap between doses in order to try to give more some protection , the eu don't do that
But its likely an 80 year old in eu will be fully vaccinated at the same time as an 80 year old is fully vaccinated in the uk due to the spaces between doses.
Also when we started this vaccination programme our death rates were in the thousands per day , we are also still in lockdown which will be helping our figures at the moment.
The eu ( well certain countries ) also have supplies that they haven't used yet , they need to be getting these out asap as well then they will be further in.
The uk have done zero wrong here

If the conversations between the PM and other EU leaders fail, then we can expect a further escalation of tensions, as it will be mean that VDL is operating WITH the consent of all the other member states. I can't think that all members can possibly agree with her threatening action, and requisitioning factories, so we may see a very serious split creating problems with overall unity.

It will be more worrying if cool heads do not prevail in the coming days, and this really does happen. So damaging for the EU.

UK should switch to AZ now for all vaccines as a preventative measure just in case. We now need to plan for the worst case scenario.

It is an act of such hostility, and it is a very serious step for the EU, and it will change everything not just outside the EU, but it will mark a very meaningful change INSIDE the EU. A much more authoritarian approach that will go well beyond the vaccine war that is bound to follow if they are follow through with their threats. The EU have a far bigger problem than the vaccines lets put it that way. Scary times.

@MissConductUS I think it's been suggested in the press and also that he was opposed to brexit but I have no idea on what he feels , but clearly not as uk centred as Trump appeared.
Being irish doesn't mean you always like the rest of the uk either

@Plumedenom

Whatever way you cut it, personally if I saw my neighbouring country with 300 people dying a day, 86% of whom were over 70, and I had all my over 70s already vaccinated and my death rate down to 33 a day, I'd be giving the next batch to them. Because when all this is over, they will still be your neighbour, and they are going to remember whether you acted with humanity or selfishness. The EU has fucked up, but they couldn't unilaterally decide like the UK, they had to consult and negotiate. It takes time. We lost time. But here we, and people are dying and while you guys guesstimate whether summer will be in Cornwall or France, we are wondering how many more waves between now and Christmas, and whether school will open again this year.

Our over-70s are not already vaccinated. They've only had one dose.

We have previously said that we will distribute our extra vaccines once our own citizens have been fully vaccinated. Just as the EU are going to do.

@Itsalonghaul haven't we basically switched to az now for first doses of the papers are to be believed.
Hence why we have also just slowed vaccine rollout out and over 40's won't get an invite just yet as we prioritise 2nd doses and first doses for groups called up
Hopefully we have enough 2nd doses here to give to those who have had as we have a big gap as it is and not really any wiggle room, we still as far as I am aware are the only country to have such big gaps , hence we seem to have more vaccinated.
When the reality is only a small amount are fully vaccinated.
I have had my first dose , my 2nd isn't until June so I won't feel fully protected until then . ( as much as can be protected as know not 100% )

Total tangent but, in terms of Obama's irishness, this always makes me laugh

done yes and I agree with the plan to vaccinate with a long gap. Other countries are now doing the same. Giving everyone some protection is far better than giving a small number total protection. It seems to be working. Hospital admissions are plummeting now.

The fact you won't be fully vaccinated fully until June is a good thing. It means you are less likely to break the restrictions. We need to get many millions more vaccinated and the vulnerable completely vaccinated, before we can relax the restrictions too much. I am 100% supportive of this rollout, and it has been flawless so far in delivery. Of the things we needed to get right, it was the vaccines.

@Itsalonghaul I agree as well tbh I think we made the best decision based on our cases , I wasn't aware any other countries were doing such a gap though and wonder why the eu don't consider this ? Thought it was because we were the only country taking the risk and they consider it a risk.
And yes your right I will follow all guidelines but also because many still haven't been vaccinated as well as myself , even my 87 year old nan will not be fully vaccinated until the end of april.

[quote donewithitalltodayandxmas]@MissConductUS I think it's been suggested in the press and also that he was opposed to brexit but I have no idea on what he feels , but clearly not as uk centred as Trump appeared.
Being irish doesn't mean you always like the rest of the uk either [/quote]
Well here's the thing, about Biden - who was the first non-Canadian leader (in the whole world) he spoke to after being elected? Boris Johnson.

Who was the first European leader he telephoned after taking office? Boris Johnson.

And this was after there had been many gloating articles in the UK and EU press saying that the Taoiseach, Merkel and Macron would be waaaay ahead of us in his list. There weren't so many articles about how important the order was, afterwards...

@Itsalonghaul

I would also say the picture is far bleaker than the stats suggest, as many countries in the EU can not afford/simply do not have the testing facilities of bigger nations. Poland for example is overwhelmed with covid at the moment, but you may not think so looking at the 21,000 infections recorded. That is because you can't get a test, even when you are ill. Hospitals have been buckling there for weeks, again largely unreported. The EU will know that on the ground things are far far worse than they appear, and are only going in one direction.

That is terrible to hear. My heart goes out to the Polish, and other EU countries that are struggling.

please don’t think that everyone in the U.K. is as viciously selfish and lacking in humanity as displayed on this thread

Wow @HeddaGarbled, you seem to be mixing us up with the EU leadership.

When we speedily approved the Pfizer jab - they criticised us, and stated that we had somehow cut corners.

When we got on with vaccinations - they criticised us, and implied that we had cut corners.

When it all began to go pear-shaped for them - guess what they did!!

And every time they imply we're cutting corners, or go against their own EMA's advice, or state the AZ vaccine is "quasi-ineffective" for over 65s, or halt rollout for no medical reason, etc etc - they massively dent confidence in the vaccine, and give fuel to their anti-vaxxers.

And guess what results? Deaths.

We should share. Sharing can be hard when it’s something you really really want to keep all for yourself. But it’s the ethical thing to do. We teach our children to share. Time for us to show them that we are people they can look up to.

All that clapping on doorsteps and giving to Captain Tom, it was all pissing in the wind, if we come to one of the biggest moral dilemmas we will ever face in our lifetimes and we choose the selfish path.

@Umbivalent like I said I have no idea on Biden just answering the poster as to why.
He has been silent on all this for now as well so none of us knows what he thinks a previous leader would of waded in by now

@HeddaGarbled you don't get it still , how we can we share and risk out own people not getting second jabs , this isn't a jam doughnut.
The eu could also increase its gap between doses to get more done? If it feels that risk isn't worth it then obviously thats there choice.
Have you also seen the impact the small amount if doses coming from the eu to uk will actually make to the eu ?
We are providing vital components and have heavily invested in R & d etc all things that will help
Also heavily donated to covax who will be helping countries who actually cannot afford the vaccination.
Some countries in europe also have vaccine in storage why are they not using these quickly or diverting to eur countries who need them most ?

@HeddaGarbled

We should share. Sharing can be hard when it’s something you really really want to keep all for yourself. But it’s the ethical thing to do. We teach our children to share. Time for us to show them that we are people they can look up to.

All that clapping on doorsteps and giving to Captain Tom, it was all pissing in the wind, if we come to one of the biggest moral dilemmas we will ever face in our lifetimes and we choose the selfish path.

So tell that to the EU countries that are sat on doses they won't use, that are getting closer to their use by date every day.

Tell them to lift the embargo and send Australia the doses it paid for. To any other country that will use them.

And don't forget, what UvdL is asking for is more doses to add to the stockpile, removing them from use.

Fucking Aldi vaccine?!?!? Who will stand up and apologise to the families of people who get ill and / or die for that PR delight?

A humanitarian decision debased to boost someone's political ambition?

Don't you dare cast that stone, you'll bring your own house down!

hedda really so you expect the UK to see its own citizens die just to send vaccines to the EU that they are not even using?!!!

Are you for real?

Of course the UK is not going to send vaccines to countries that are sitting on a 14.8 million stockpile! Why the hell would they. Just the lunacy of that statement beggars belief.

When the EU have finally used up their vaccines, assuming they will not expire in the meantime and be thrown away - and we have vaccinated at least those that are most likely to die from the virus, THEN we can have the conversation about sharing!!!

I am all for sharing and helping, but not if the our precious much needed vaccines are sitting in fridges all over the bloc whilst people dither and delay deciding whether they deem the vaccine good enough for them! No thanks, they can have the Russian or Chinese vaccines instead.