9 out of 20 students in my class are apparently exempt from mask wearing

[Workyticket]

Taught them in a small room with a slit of a window for 1.5 hours

6 of those 9 had chosen not to take a lateral flow test because their Mum said they didn't have to

Schools and colleges are safe though. Apparently

@noblegiraffe

Yes it does, they monitored infection rates - 1.9% in mask users and 2.1 % in non-maskers

Do you know what confidence intervals are? The study states "Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection."

Their first limitation listed is "Inconclusive results".

So anyone looking at that study and claiming that it puts to bed any idea that mask wearing protects mask wearers. doesn't know what they're talking about.

Read the article, as others are free to, don't rely on me, anyone interested should read it at source.

I did, I have, and it doesn't say what you are claiming.

Here's a quote from the study conclusion "Yet, the findings were inconclusive and cannot definitively exclude a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection of mask wearers in such a setting. It is important to emphasize that this trial did not address the effects of masks as source control or as protection in settings where social distancing and other public health measures are not in effect."

So it has nothing to say either, about the protective effect or otherwise of masks in a classroom where social distancing is not being observed.

So point me to the RCT that says masks do stop transmission, proove your point to me. Not a journalists article but a proper academic study. If you can do that I will read it and offer a critique.

@lockeddownandcrazy well put. The genuine exemptions are largely in my opinion conditions that a school was aware of before the pandemic. SEN children and others with an EHCP, those with asthma or other medical conditions.

@Londonmummy66 I agree with the approach you describe.

lucy that policing analogy is ridiculously offensive.

That's shitty of the parents! I honestly don't think they should be allowed back without a really good reason for not having tests.

Like the group of 10 teenagers that I saw at Bluewater - all exempt apparently

And then there’s my ds who is genuinely exempt and chooses to wear his as he doesn’t want to be singled out or questioned why he doesn’t wear one and have to explain feeling embarrassed.

So point me to the RCT that says masks do stop transmission, proove your point to me. Not a journalists article but a proper academic study. If you can do that I will read it and offer a critique.

Your critique would be literally worthless. You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

You came on this thread, announced that you were an ITU nurse, capable of reading academic studies and that you'd read all the literature. You then then misrepresented a particularly well-known study, didn't know what it was about, misrepresented its findings, and didn't understand confidence intervals. You also refused to look at anything that SAGE had to say about the evidence, or the evidence that they used to make their recommendation (as apparently you'd need to read it, despite having 'read all the literature'). You haven't offered any insight bar what you could have got from a Spectator headline.

Why on earth would you expect anyone to want your opinion?

@noblegiraffe

So point me to the RCT that says masks do stop transmission, proove your point to me. Not a journalists article but a proper academic study. If you can do that I will read it and offer a critique.

Your critique would be literally worthless. You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

You came on this thread, announced that you were an ITU nurse, capable of reading academic studies and that you'd read all the literature. You then then misrepresented a particularly well-known study, didn't know what it was about, misrepresented its findings, and didn't understand confidence intervals. You also refused to look at anything that SAGE had to say about the evidence, or the evidence that they used to make their recommendation (as apparently you'd need to read it, despite having 'read all the literature'). You haven't offered any insight bar what you could have got from a Spectator headline.

Why on earth would you expect anyone to want your opinion?

Still waiting to be pointed to the study to change my mind- personal attacks are not debates @noblegiraffe.

I am definitely an ITU nurse - renewed my PIN number very recently!

I think when they start happening the debate is lost no?

www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

www.healthline.com/health-news/wearing-a-mask-may-reduce-how-sick-you-get-from-covid-19

The bottom line as far as I know is the Government has said in England whether exempt or not no teenager in the classroom may be made to wear a mask (or have CV19 tests) and if they refuse they cannot be denied their education.

If people do not like that then they need to lobby their MP.

@Belladonna12

Booking just opened up to the over 55s as of Monday but that does not mean appointments are available straight away.

The first appointments are for next week and then won't confer immunity until 3 weeks after vaccination. So people aged 55-59 will basically be working with no protection for 4 weeks starting March 8th and lasting until the Easter holidays. Sure, they will be unlucky to catch it in those 4 weeks but it would be nice if parents would help them to feel a bit safer at work in the meantime by encouraging their children to get tests/wear masks if not medically exempt.

They were open on Sunday actually. DH got an appointment for Monday. I'm not saying it's the same everywhere but you can't insist that everyone has to wait for weeks wherever they live. It doesn't take four weeks for any immunity to develop. It will take a week or two the most people. Infections are low at the moment and are likely to be for the next couple weeks so I think the risk is pretty low. I agree parents should help make things safer that I haven't said otherwise so not sure what your point is.

No it’s not the same every where. We checked at weekend for dh and couldn’t get 1st appointment till 31st march. Our area is also short on vaccines for completing group 6 it has been reported

Still waiting to be pointed to the study to change my mind

You think that evidence is worthless unless it's an RCT, right?

So if they had bullet-proof vests that were really solid, we could show that bullets don't penetrate them, that we observed that people were less likely to die of bullet wounds if they wore them, you'd be completely dismissive of their effectiveness on the grounds that they hadn't lined up 6000 people, 3000 wearing a vest, 3000 not, shot them and examined the outcome.

So what's the point?

@HolmeH

Think you are just going to have to get over it OP. My friend works in FE & says over half her students are refusing or not bothering or wearing them under their noses. She’s just resigned to it & accepts she might get covid. It is extremely rare for a 30 year old to be in ICU. Not unheard of but almost always with underlying conditions. Your colleague was extremely unlucky, I hope she gets better soon. She has every chance of doing so, thankfully the death rate in the 30’s in absolutely tiny.

I hate the 'underlying conditions' excuse. It's still NOT okay. Many of these so called underlying conditions would not have someone hospitalised or dying early.

I caught covid and ended up in hospital, off work for 7 weeks and still, 4 months on, not fully right and with a new medical condition with two daily tablets to add in. My 'underlying condition' was arthritis - yes, it means my immunity can be compromised, especially with my medication, but it is controlled and all precautions taken including an annual flu vaccine. it is NOT something I would be expected to die from.

I was rushed to a and e and admitted due to a massive blood pressure spike and there was a very real risk of having a heart attack or stroke if they didn't get it down ASAP. It's taken 4 months to finally have a week of normal readings, albeit with two strong medications being taken daily.

Where is the most likely place I caught covid, which led to all this? Based in all my movements and contacts - school. Only people in school I had close contact with were the children.

It's easy to say to it here's 'just get over it' but surely simply measures like masks and lft tests could have been made much more necessary for all children without a valid reason - and that valid reason should need a medical note or a letter from a medic/professional who works with said child to show its valid.

No way are 1/3 of a mainstream class all genuinely valid exemptions!

But more than anything we need to stop hiding behind the whole 'underlying health conditions' - how many people would really be expected to have an early death due to the numerous conditions listed. Anyone over the age of 50 is classed as more vulnerable (hence in a priority group) - is it okay that they die early too, you know they have to die sometime after all and being 50 makes you vulnerable, so similar to the whole 'underlying condition'. What about being BAME? Again - more vulnerable so it that also okay too?

@AaronPurr

They aren't really "better than nothing" if a positive is more likely to be false than a true positive

Happy to be corrected but i'm pretty sure it's false negatives that are the worry, not false positives. It's statistically very unlikely to be a false positive.

False positives are an issue, I agree. Though once they are done from home this will reduce - the pcr test will overrule it. I know you will still get the odd one or two day missed, but only that one household will be affected and for a relatively short period of time, especially as pcr results are currently being returned very quickly and it's possible to get a same day test at present in most places.

The government and DfE, if they wanted to, could also change the rules for the 'in school' lft being done presently. They could easily change it so that a negative pcr overrules a positive lft, even if done in school, but don't want to.

The fact that they won't may have a damaging result - people who have signed up for it and been affected will withdraw consent for the next 2 tests (which now can't be done for 90 days anyway) and in the meantime untested pupils will return after 10 days isolation and be in classrooms - as they will now be recorded as 'had covid in last 90 days' they won't be testing. So actually even if only 1 or 2 children have it happen the ripple effect could be large.

@Clutterbugsmum

My children haven't and will not do LF Tests, they all have strong gag reflexes as in they all gag (as do I) when cleaning their back teeth. But they all know they have to wear their mask while in school unless they are eating or drinking an they are happy to do so.

If you can't do the throat, you can opt to do both nostrils instead. No need to refuse due to a gag reflex.

@noblegiraffe

The statistics actually do show teachers are safer then other professions.

Define 'safer'? Define 'other professions'?

That isn't quite what the 'research' found.

@Ineedaweeee

I have spoken to school, I have read everything, I have just not had anyone say to me all help will be there its just about covid I'm just very worried

I work in infants and we would deal with a medical emergency (and non emergency for that matter) like we did one covid. We will still comfort a hurt child too. We will still comfort an upset child as well.

Normal, natural instincts means people still react in the same ways.

The vast majority of people wear masks. That means the vast majority of people who have died have been wearing masks.

I most likely caught covid in school. At the time I wasn't allowed to wear a mask. The children I teach didn't wear masks - due to their age they still won't be in masks. As the one teaching I can now wear a mask, but back then we couldn't. I didn't die, clearly, but I was ill enough to be in hospital.

People have caught covid in many places. People weren't required to wear a mask at all until the end of the summer. Even then we were given about 2 weeks notice and it was only in certain places. People don't have to wear masks in a lot of places.

No it’s not the same every where. We checked at weekend for dh and couldn’t get 1st appointment till 31st march. Our area is also short on vaccines for completing group 6 it has been reported

Group 6 is generally being done by GPs whereas age groups are more likely to be done by the mass vaccination centres or pharmacies. Therefore don't assume the group 6 has to be done first. There has been a reduction in supply in the last couple of weeks but there is about to be a big increase.

I teach. Primary aged. I keep my distance just fine

Our classrooms just simply aren't big enough to SD.
How do you go round checking work as the children are sat? Or are you not doing this and just marking later?

I teach infants so there is now SD and no masks. I don't expect there to be for the children. Though staff do wear masks much more now. I remove mine if at the front of the room, but put it in for close work.

I don't expect young children to be wear masks, etc. But I would would have quite liked the government to actually accept that this isn't possible, that SD isn't possible. Rather than pretend it is. And that yes, it may mean that staff could catch covid from their pupils on occasions.

If you can't do the throat, you can opt to do both nostrils instead. No need to refuse due to a gag reflex

Is this true? Sorry to sound like I’m doubtful, but the gagging is putting me off doing my home tests as regularly as I should be, so I’d love to know about it if we are allowed to do it like that. Is it still as accurate, or it is stuff like this that’s leading to false results?

The fact that they won't may have a damaging result - people who have signed up for it and been affected will withdraw consent for the next 2 tests (which now can't be done for 90 days anyway) and in the meantime untested pupils will return after 10 days isolation and be in classrooms - as they will now be recorded as 'had covid in last 90 days' they won't be testing. So actually even if only 1 or 2 children have it happen the ripple effect could be large.

Yes, I think not allowing it to be overruled by a PCR test will almost certainly have a negative impact. I know NHS workers who have already withdrawn consent because of this. They have been vaccinated and regularly test, their children have been at home so if the test is positive this week it will be a false positive. Despite that, they will have to do take two weeks off work, cancel patient appointments etc. it could have a huge ripple effect.

@Abraxan

I teach. Primary aged. I keep my distance just fine

Our classrooms just simply aren't big enough to SD.
How do you go round checking work as the children are sat? Or are you not doing this and just marking later?

I teach infants so there is now SD and no masks. I don't expect there to be for the children. Though staff do wear masks much more now. I remove mine if at the front of the room, but put it in for close work.

I don't expect young children to be wear masks, etc. But I would would have quite liked the government to actually accept that this isn't possible, that SD isn't possible. Rather than pretend it is. And that yes, it may mean that staff could catch covid from their pupils on occasions.

The children are primary 7. Answers are in the back of textbooks or up on the board. Sometimes I'll focus on groups who put hands up to answer questions while others continue with their work. We discuss differing answers and the children explain their methods which helps anyone who is struggling with a particular piece of work. For topic work we do a lot of class discussion.

Jotters are put in boxes and left a couple of days before being marked and handed back. Anyone who needs a one to one chat comes out of the class into the hall where there is space to sit for a moment and give feedback.

For decades education was a teacher at the front of the class and children at individual desks. We can cope temporarily like this. The children are fine and the older ones especially see it as an opportunity to play at being in secondary school. They see grouped tables and teachers mingling amongst them as babyish.

The lower school obviously have to do things differently.

Yes, I think not allowing it to be overruled by a PCR test will almost certainly have a negative impact. I know NHS workers who have already withdrawn consent because of this. They have been vaccinated and regularly test, their children have been at home so if the test is positive this week it will be a false positive. Despite that, they will have to do take two weeks off work, cancel patient appointments etc. it could have a huge ripple effect
It's this sort of thing that shows how poorly planned much of the school reopening has been.
Schools are doing their best within a framework that in many places hasn't been thought through.

There needed to be more meaningful discussions with relevant bodies to create a clearer, strategic plan that would benefit staff, students and families.
What we got was endless changes and delays to guidance and needlessly combative rhetoric designed to create divide between teachers and parents.