Twice weekly lateral flow tests for households of school pupils

[SingANewSongChickenTikka]

This seems a brilliant step forward, twice weekly lateral flow tests for households and bubbles of school staff and school pupils. Posted or ‘click and collect’. Yes the lateral flow tests have their limitations, but it still should help I think.

www.gov.uk/guidance/rapid-lateral-flow-testing-for-households-and-bubbles-of-school-pupils-and-staff

[quote Frazzled2207]@covetingthepreciousthings
I read them fine but I had a separate email from test and trace which said they should not be used on primary aged children. Agree it’s contradictory.[/quote]
Yes I was referring to the email (haven't actually read the instructions yet as I'm not planning to test until Monday in advance of school returning on Tuesday). I know its voluntary for anyone, but if you were going to do it and if the child was willing to do it surely it would make the most sense to test the child as well as the parents?

@BlackLambAndGreyFalcoln
Agree entirely. I think perhaps it’s just the government not wanting to be seen to be forcing or encouraging parents to tests primary aged kids and also the higher chance of getting it wrong which is presumably a higher chance or a false negative. If my kids were older and willing I’d get them to do them too.

A friend in Switzerland says older primary children are being tested there once a week, but it's all saliva tests, which the younger children don't mind. I wonder if there's any opportunity for those sorts of tests here for primary schools, if cases start to rise again?

I expect the results reporting helps keep track of cases and the number of tests etc - otherwise the government might report the number of tests sent out, which will be a huge number, and the number of positives will be very small compared to that, and they'll insist that everything is fine as the proportion of positive tests is very small - even if it turned out to be the case that most of the tests weren't used. Of course they oughtn't to do that, but I am suspicious of them and think that they'd do anything they could to make the results look good even if they're not.

If child tests positive from LFT test do you have to take for PCR or can they and household just isolate for 10 days? Can't see point of doing PCR when school says even if get negative PCT after a positive LFT the child and household have to stay home for 10 days anyway (that's what our school have said, can't go back for 10 days regardless)

@NeverForgetYourDreams

If child tests positive from LFT test do you have to take for PCR or can they and household just isolate for 10 days? Can't see point of doing PCR when school says even if get negative PCT after a positive LFT the child and household have to stay home for 10 days anyway (that's what our school have said, can't go back for 10 days regardless)

When you say 'have to' no one will enforce it, so long as you isolate. No test can be compulsory.

The issue would be if you didn't isolate after getting a positive LFT.

*PCR

Ok so we can just all stay home and not go to a proper testing centre? Don't see point of going to get proper test if told to stay home anyway for 10 days.

[quote Frazzled2207]@BlackLambAndGreyFalcoln
Agree entirely. I think perhaps it’s just the government not wanting to be seen to be forcing or encouraging parents to tests primary aged kids and also the higher chance of getting it wrong which is presumably a higher chance or a false negative. If my kids were older and willing I’d get them to do them too.[/quote]
Having seen the fact that primary kids have the highest positivity of any age group, maybe the government don't want to see how many primary kids have the virus! twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1367448762025672704

@NeverForgetYourDreams

Ok so we can just all stay home and not go to a proper testing centre? Don't see point of going to get proper test if told to stay home anyway for 10 days.

You can't be forced to test.

It is however a breach of covid laws (I think laws not guidance) not to isolate after a positive test.

I didn't say I would breach, I said we would stay home but not bother doing a PCR test.

@Thimbleberries

A friend in Switzerland says older primary children are being tested there once a week, but it's all saliva tests, which the younger children don't mind. I wonder if there's any opportunity for those sorts of tests here for primary schools, if cases start to rise again?

I expect the results reporting helps keep track of cases and the number of tests etc - otherwise the government might report the number of tests sent out, which will be a huge number, and the number of positives will be very small compared to that, and they'll insist that everything is fine as the proportion of positive tests is very small - even if it turned out to be the case that most of the tests weren't used. Of course they oughtn't to do that, but I am suspicious of them and think that they'd do anything they could to make the results look good even if they're not.

There should be the option got saliva tests here but unfortunately the government sorry billions on these inaccurate tests. Hence the rush to use them in schools and surge testing. Becaysr they wasted our money. Again.

Even though they’re inaccurate and Miss positives, they’re still better than no test because they at least catch some cases.

Lft tests don’t count as case on national records or personal records.

If you refuse a PCR following a lft and your child has issues in later life, no one will know why.

get negative PCT after a positive LFT the child and household have to stay home for 10 days anyway (that's what our school have said, can't go back for 10 days regardless)
This is ridiculous -given the high rate of positive tests on LFT.
I will not be doing mine too carefully.

@ChameleonClara "Having seen the fact that primary kids have the highest positivity of any age group, maybe the government don't want to see how many primary kids have the virus! https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1367448762025672704"

This is hardly surprising given that the 5-12 age group were mainly in school over lockdown. Lots of reports of primaries being 50-75% full.

@NeverForgetYourDreams "I didn't say I would breach, I said we would stay home but not bother doing a PCR test."

Getting a PCR test would enable a false-positive LFT to be ruled out AND allow sequencing of the Covid genome for monitoring of spread/emerging variants.

@QuidditchQueen

get negative PCT after a positive LFT the child and household have to stay home for 10 days anyway (that's what our school have said, can't go back for 10 days regardless) This is ridiculous -given the high rate of positive tests on LFT. I will not be doing mine too carefully.

I may have missed the discussion on this, but lateral flow tests work like (almost exactly like) pregnancy tests.

Huge number of false negatives (where antigen is present but too low in concentration to yet be detected), but low rate of false positives - you have to have the antigens present for the fixed monoclonal antibodies to bind.

I've always been supportive of the tests and still am overall.

But I am confused about the lft v pcr.

For staff using them we were told that if you're lft is positive then you get a confirmatory pcr, self isolating until the pcr result comes back. If the pcr is negative you stop isolating.

However dh's colleague's son tested positive on an lft at school. His pcr has come back negative. He appears to be one of the small number of false positives.

But his School still say he can't return to school for 10 days.
Is that the case?

And if so, why is a different to the staff guidelines?

It's causing them a real issue as both parents are now being told by the school that the household now has to isolate. So dad has to cancel some emergency vet appointments and operations and mum has to cancel some important client meetings - both are classed as critical workers. Other child also,can't now return to,school,either.

I thought the pcr test result overruled a lft one.
But his school says now.

Surely things like this will mean people are less likely to want to be involved. They now considering whether to withdraw consent.

@Abraxan
indeed another poster said this - seems daft. What would be the motivation to go for a PCR after a positive LFT if you're going to have to isolate anyway? Someone needs to challenge that.

Sorry just got the email about the lateral test flows after we uploaded our results, and yes it does appear to contradict the test pack information. It states that primary aged children should not be tested, I don't know why though?

If a primary aged child is willing to be tested?

[quote Frazzled2207]@Abraxan
indeed another poster said this - seems daft. What would be the motivation to go for a PCR after a positive LFT if you're going to have to isolate anyway? Someone needs to challenge that.[/quote]
They're getting nowhere with the school.

It seems to contradict the information in the guidance I was sent with my pack for staff testing.

What's the point of a pcr confirmatory test if it's not going to be acknowledged?

I'm concerned that these types of things will mean more parents go on to withdraw consent. Dh's colleague was so supportive of them and the school prior to this, but is now having to consider whether her two children should now be involved as they can't deal with this issue each time.

@CarolJordan DHs hospital has been monitoring the LFT / PCR rates on their testing for a while now and they are finding about 25% false positive rate with LFTs
They are quite concerned about the school testing as they are worried about the number of staff that will be off isolating.
We've given consent for now but are going to follow what happens and may withdraw it later.

Another issue with the false positive LFTs - do the pupils sitting next to the pupil with a false positive LFT have to isolate also?
(by false positive I mean a positive LFT that is then suggested to be false by a negative PCR).
If so, that is a lot of pupils and families inconvenienced and at home unnecessarily.

A negative PCR should really cancel out a positive LFT, or at least only affect one pupil.

@Abraxan

I've always been supportive of the tests and still am overall.

But I am confused about the lft v pcr.

For staff using them we were told that if you're lft is positive then you get a confirmatory pcr, self isolating until the pcr result comes back. If the pcr is negative you stop isolating.

However dh's colleague's son tested positive on an lft at school. His pcr has come back negative. He appears to be one of the small number of false positives.

But his School still say he can't return to school for 10 days.
Is that the case?

And if so, why is a different to the staff guidelines?

It's causing them a real issue as both parents are now being told by the school that the household now has to isolate. So dad has to cancel some emergency vet appointments and operations and mum has to cancel some important client meetings - both are classed as critical workers. Other child also,can't now return to,school,either.

I thought the pcr test result overruled a lft one.
But his school says now.

Surely things like this will mean people are less likely to want to be involved. They now considering whether to withdraw consent.

This is what we've been told to. No point in PCR after LFT if have to stay home anyway so we won't bother and will just isolate for 10 days. He's having the first 3 tests which should come back negative anyway hopefully and then we aren't allowing any more and no home testing. If someone in his bubble tests positive he will be sent home anyway so pointless

[quote wonkylegs]@CarolJordan DHs hospital has been monitoring the LFT / PCR rates on their testing for a while now and they are finding about 25% false positive rate with LFTs
They are quite concerned about the school testing as they are worried about the number of staff that will be off isolating.
We've given consent for now but are going to follow what happens and may withdraw it later. [/quote]
Oh really, that's interesting.

I'm sure I've just seen on the gov website that actually you now don't need to have PCR confirmation of a positive LF test...

Local .gov site:
"Positive result
A positive lateral flow result means you must go home and self-isolate for ten days, preventing further spread. This is a legal duty, and contact tracing will take place. There is no general requirement for a follow-up NHS test."

@covetingthepreciousthings

Sorry just got the email about the lateral test flows after we uploaded our results, and yes it does appear to contradict the test pack information. It states that primary aged children should not be tested, I don't know why though?

If a primary aged child is willing to be tested?

I think the psychological impact of regular testing on primary children could be an issue, it really does focus the mind on positive/negative.

@Abraxan

I've always been supportive of the tests and still am overall.

But I am confused about the lft v pcr.

For staff using them we were told that if you're lft is positive then you get a confirmatory pcr, self isolating until the pcr result comes back. If the pcr is negative you stop isolating.

However dh's colleague's son tested positive on an lft at school. His pcr has come back negative. He appears to be one of the small number of false positives.

But his School still say he can't return to school for 10 days.
Is that the case?

And if so, why is a different to the staff guidelines?

It's causing them a real issue as both parents are now being told by the school that the household now has to isolate. So dad has to cancel some emergency vet appointments and operations and mum has to cancel some important client meetings - both are classed as critical workers. Other child also,can't now return to,school,either.

I thought the pcr test result overruled a lft one.
But his school says now.

Surely things like this will mean people are less likely to want to be involved. They now considering whether to withdraw consent.

Yes I picked this up too. I don’t think there were many comments about other schools but ours is positive on LFT is treated as a positive whatever a PCR test says (so no real point doing one) . All close co tact’s would also have to isolate, same for the family. This is what makes the false positive rate a problem. If it was for a couple of days whilst obtaining a PCR it would be fine