Is anyone planning on refusing to allow their children to have the lateral flow tests.

[Witchcraftandhokum]

I'm really not looking to start a bunfight. Just tying to better understand the reasons if you are not planning on allowing your child to be tested.

The false positive rate is from the manufacturer based on large amounts of data mainly when taken by HCP in mass screening programs. It’s not a slim downside for entire families and whole classes to have to isolate for 10 days unnecessarily. If the recommendation was to take a PCR and if that was negative to stop isolating that would be acceptable, but positive on LFT triggers full isolation for all contacts for 10 days. If you’re not entitled to pay in that 10 days it’s not a slim downside.

False positive rate is around 0.32% (source BMJ) when LFT are carried out by trained HCPs.

When done by lay people, the rate of positives falls (both true and false positives)

positive on LFT triggers full isolation for all contacts for 10 days

Only on in-school tests. At home tests need a confirmatory PCR.

Whole classes don’t isolate for a positive anyway.

What are you taking as your ‘picking up asymptomatic cases’ rate?

@BungleandGeorge

The false positive rate is from the manufacturer based on large amounts of data mainly when taken by HCP in mass screening programs. It’s not a slim downside for entire families and whole classes to have to isolate for 10 days unnecessarily. If the recommendation was to take a PCR and if that was negative to stop isolating that would be acceptable, but positive on LFT triggers full isolation for all contacts for 10 days. If you’re not entitled to pay in that 10 days it’s not a slim downside.

So you're interpreting manufacturers information in a way that suits your argument. Not in a way that it is intended.

The argument about peoples income possibly being affected by isolating is very true. However it is more likely to be affected by isolating because parents have allowed cases to run unchecked through their school. At least with testing some spread and multiplication can be stopped.

Like I said before the tests have been a positive thing for our school. I really don't see why there would be much difference in other schools.

No, that is the manufacturers official false positive rate not anything to do with interpretation???

I think it may depend on your school? Policy at ours is still whole class isolates and any positive test is isolation. There’s no recommendation to get a PCR, in line with their policy that if you’re symptomatic you must do full isolation whatever your PCR result as it could be incorrect.

The most common quotation for accuracy is 50% risk of false negative. If done by HCP it’s a bit higher but it’s less accurate for lower viral load in asymptomatic cases so seems unlikely to be over 50:50

@SexTrainGlue

False positive rate is around 0.32% (source BMJ) when LFT are carried out by trained HCPs.

When done by lay people, the rate of positives falls (both true and false positives)

So if just half of pupils in schools in England tested twice a week that false positive rate would generate about 30,000 false positive tests each week. That is 30000 pupils abd their class contacts isolating unnecessarily. And would cause a false huge 'surge' in cases.

Every secondary school would have children isolating every week due to false positives.

@PracticingPerson
Of the asymptomatic cases, LFTs will pick up at best half. But with kids it will not reach that - because LFTs detect cases with high viral load and asymptomatic cases often correlate with low viral load.

Obviously LFT far from ideal but with over 10 millions pupils in the uk where do you think the capacity to provide 10 million PCR test a week would come from.

NO EXTRA SPACE OR AIR FILTRATION IN SCHOOLS how do you propose they magic up new classrooms over night even if they built them it would take years. Air filtration systems again would take years to install thats if they equipment and firms who fit it were available to do it .

I believe the average accuracy compared to PCR testing is 75% with a trained professional doing the test. 58% with an average person.

So that sounds like an lot of cases not in school to me! The risk of false positives is really isn't what you should be focusing on. If all those cases are left un checked in school your child will be isolating anyway. Probably the whole year group ends up isolating eventually as cases rise. Then if it gets to out of hand PHE close the school for two or three weeks. All those things continue to happen again and again as the virus spreads unchecked through your school.

@Tibtom

Every secondary school would have children isolating every week due to false positives.

They will have more isolating each week because you aren't picking up positive cases if you aren't testing. Plus all those parents now infections and not able to work. You are looking at a very short term possible issue and not the overall benefit to the school community

What is the rating of transmission from asymptomatic cases anyway? Especially if primary school children are unlikely to pass the virus on, I cant imagine secondary school children being that much different if they're asymptomatic. Plus they have mask usage, where as primary dont.

If that is the case, then wouldn't the disruption from the false positives be worse than the disruption that would happen if only those with symptoms were tested?

The situation with unchecked spread and higher rates in the community obviously shifts the ratio in favour of picking up asymptomatic cases. However, that is not the situation in the vast majority of places at the moment. It’s important to question things and discuss, this doesn’t mean people are selfish. The downsides to these tests are the false positives and the possible change in behaviour which is a problem with the false negative rate. I was in favour and now shifter to on the fence since I found out the false positive rate as that is quite a downside

Currently I am only commenting on secondary schools. The research I have been looking at was done by Portsmouth university and cambridge university. All on students. So not a big difference in age from the teenagers in school.

As the primary school testing is going to be more like a household testing thing. I think people will be more likely to make economic choices.

False positives are important as they distrupt schooling totally unnecessarily. Cases did not surge when schools went back previously. Asymptomatic spread is very rare and in untrained people the LFT may pick up just 3% of pupils. So not only are you likely to have pupils off school totally unnecessary you are also likely to have symptomatic positives IN school because their test came back negative.

Untrained use of LFT may pick up just 3% of true positives

Whatever happens I think testing like this will only last a couple of months. We will then move to not watching cases so closely. Just having random swapping mostly so the government can watch for new variants and get a rough calculation of cases.

Cases did not surge when schools went back previously.

Misinformation again.

Bungle are you assuming 1 in 3 cases being asymptomatic?

I think the rates of asymptomatic cases in young people is much higher. Possibly as many as 9 in 10 if we remember the university cases.

The government has millions of these tests to use up. Their only purpose in schools is to make people feel safer going back but they are useless unless everyone takes part.

Having said that when some parents spout the following rubbish I can’t believe what I’m reading... A swab up the nose is ‘Invasive, dehumanising’? Taking ‘dramatic’ to another level. People who think like this really do exist unbelievably.
My children cannot and I do not consent to any regular, invasive and dehumanising procedures to be carried out on my perfectly healthy children.

Just wondering what some adults in the room think about taking their children visiting their doctor, dentist, optometrist for general check ups etc as to whether that this so terribly invasive and dehumanising? Same for veterinary surgeons for their pets too as some treatments must be akin to butchery.

A quick harmless swab with a nose bud is not at all dehumanising in the middle of a deadly pandemic that is keeping your (English) school otherwise fully and not partially open is not a terribly invasive personal health check which is mutually helpful to those in close face to face proximity. If your child has disabilities then that is a separate issue which requires specific tailored treatment.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia
Yes, I’m taking my perfectly healthy child for her regular, invasive and dehumanising procedure (Covid test) this afternoon.
We’ll book her into counselling ASAP.

@BerylCook

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia Yes, I’m taking my perfectly healthy child for her regular, invasive and dehumanising procedure (Covid test) this afternoon. We’ll book her into counselling ASAP.

Good luck and I hope your child does not need counselling after having nails or hair cut etc. Or even brushing teeth or simply eating and drinking as it "invades" the body. Must be a shock to the body system let alone getting a common cold, hair lice or chickenpox spread within the classroom. Bit of common sense reality check for snowflakes.

Behave in normal times anything as big as this would get a information evening and test for parents to try. I was very worried about the tests myself until I did one. Not everyone has experienced taking them.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia
It’s shocking what I put my teenage babies through