Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

[WhoWants2Know]

I think vulnerable people are still entitled to refuse assistance from anyone who isn't vaccinated, regardless of whether they can't or won't have it.

But if there's a medical reason that he can't have the vaccine, that may fall under protected characteristics. In that case the employer might need to find him a different role.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

I work in healthcare
I have had to prove I am immune to rubella, TB, chicken pox, hep B

Really? I knew about the Hep B and TB, but not rubella and chicken pox

Every day's a school day on here, so thanks for that

[Runmybathforme]

If he’s working in a face to face situation he should have the vaccine. There’s no earthly reason why he shouldn’t. I’m not sure about the legalities, but I don’t blame his employer.

[FelicityBeedle]

@Sadsiblingatsea
If you think a vaccine is an invasive procedure I envy your health. To even study my profession I needed to get hep B, and TB (which leaves the whopping great scar). This is no different. You don’t have a right to work in a profession if you can’t fulfil the requirements to be safe in that job, this includes being vaccinated

[MrsFCastle]

Wow thanks everyone for all your replies. Some very helpful points I will show him this thread.

[Motorina]

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread.

Firstly, whilst it is true that there are a number of mandatory vaccinations and blood tests for NHS clinicians, these were not brought in retrospectively. In the first few years of my career, for example, an HIV test was not required before you could start seeing patients. The NHS did not bring in HIV testing for everyone on day one. Instead, new starters had to get occupational health clearance before they started, and they added an HIV test to the requirements of that. The same thing a few years later with Hep C. Now I suspect pretty much everyone has had those tests.

It's certainly possible that a requirement to have the Covid vaccine will be brought in, but it's highly likely that this will be for new starters only, not current employees.

Secondly, for those who are saying you would decline care from an NHS clinician who has not been vaccinated, then be aware that you are unlikely to know this. The only way you could know this is if that clinician volunteered their vaccination status. You have no right at all to know any details of the medical status of anyone who treats you. The fact that they are in post means that they have appropriate Occupational Health/employer clearance to do so. If you ask for any details at all of an individual clinician then they are entitled to decline to say.

OP: I strongly suggest that your partner takes advice from their union, not here, as some of the information you've been given is incorrect. It is likely that a requirement to vaccinate will be a contractual change, and the union can best advise on whether that is something they can impose or not.

[Lilimoon]

Why didnt he joined a union when he started the role?

[SilverBirchWithout]

It’s a requirement of many healthcare jobs to have certain vaccinations, this is in essence is no different.
I certainly wouldn’t want your DP to look after a vulnerable member of my family, and I would look dimly upon an organisation or private company which didn’t protect its clients by not ensuring their staff were vaccinated.

[gingganggooleywotsit]

I think if he works in healthcare he is making a mistake and should just get the vaccine, it would be a lot easier

[RoundedTum]

What is his job role and how long has he been employed by this employer?

[reformedcharacters]

OP Motorina is correct your DH should take advice from a union, I also posted a link to ACAS as a starting point.

[combatbarbie]

@TomHardyandMe both my in laws have had the vaccination but neither were given anything to say that they had it.

Vaccinations are personal choice, if he wears the correct PPE in lieu of a vaccine then I can't see how they can terminate his contract. Clearly this hasn't been tested in law yet but I don't think it will be long. I really think this is a non issue, a person who couldn't have the vaccine wouldn't be treated this way. It's direct discrimination.

[Doris86]

Why does he not want the vaccine? Why is it ‘too soon’?

[mumwon]

individual rights versus social responsibility
we live in a society
he works within a group of vulnerable people
Coronavirus can kill or can cause a much higher number of people to have serious & long term if not permanent side effects
lets not forget the number of deaths are within 28 days of diagnosis & actually more people die from side effects of covid long after that (many of these who had come into hospital with covid stay for prolonged periods & among those we have no figures of people who died after that time period)
So yes, if you work with or among or people who are vulnerable than you should be responsible for your actions, The vaccine has very very very low levels of major side effects compared to the disease & its to your advantage to take it as well as the people you work with
& the more people who don't take it up the more chance of mutations which could have even worse casualty rates

[PinkTonic]

Firstly, whilst it is true that there are a number of mandatory vaccinations and blood tests for NHS clinicians, these were not brought in retrospectively. In the first few years of my career, for example, an HIV test was not required before you could start seeing patients. The NHS did not bring in HIV testing for everyone on day one. Instead, new starters had to get occupational health clearance before they started, and they added an HIV test to the requirements of that. The same thing a few years later with Hep C. Now I suspect pretty much everyone has had those tests.

It's certainly possible that a requirement to have the Covid vaccine will be brought in, but it's highly likely that this will be for new starters only, not current employees

The circumstances now are so materially different I don’t think it’s possible to say what’s highly likely. ‘Just thinks it’s a bit soon’

Probably a goady thread anyway but it’s unacceptable that someone working in healthcare in close contact with patients would adopt this attitude, and furthermore Chris Whitty was pretty clear on his position on Monday. Get the vaccine, in fact champion the vaccine. It’s part of your job.

[Erkrie]

Depends where he's working I guess and how much face to face contact he has with vulnerable people.If he's working in a care home then he will be under considerable pressure to do so. They can't make him. But they would be justified in not giving him shifts either.

[FourTeaFallOut]

How long has he worked for the same employer for, op?

[Okbussitout]

Sorry but it's a professional duty to have the vaccine. Just like there have always been vaccination requirements for health and social care jobs.

[Mumoftwoinprimary]

I really think this is a non issue, a person who couldn't have the vaccine wouldn't be treated this way. It's direct discrimination.

There is a difference though between those who choose and those who can’t. I work with someone who is blind. Various accommodations have been made for him including being allowed to bring his (guide) dog to work. I don’t think I’d be allowed to bring Fido in if I decided to walk around all day with my eyes closed. (In fact - I am short sighted enough that I would be legally blind if glasses didn’t exist but if I chose not to wear my glasses then I believe that I can’t claim discrimination if work sack me for treading on the CEO’s foot as wearing glasses is not a protected characteristic.)

[rwalker]

Wouldn't bother joining union as it's retrospective issue tends to piss them off when people only join because they need them.
It's like insuring your house for fire after it's burnt down and trying to claim .

They can't force him but if clients refused care off him (I would) then they would have to do something you can't expect them to keep paying him for not working .
They could possibly go for non coprable dismissal it's a kind of nobody fault but you can't do the job ( no clients want him).
Very grey area but even if they did dismiss him and won a case for unfair dismissal you aren't granteed your job back and might get a grand for hurt feelings no big claim for loss of career as he should be able to get another job in care .

I really think if he doesn't want jab he needs to change jobs .

[pointythings]

I think if he won't have the vaccine and protect his patients, he should not be working in health or social care.

I've had mine, and I'm not even front line - but I occasionally have to step in and be in places where patients are, and I wouldn't dream of taking that chance. Your DP needs to think long and hard and consult his conscience.

[LochNessSwim]

I’m fascinated to see how this situation will play out from a legal perspective. None of the vaccines provide 100% protection, so everyone who abstains from having it presents greater risk to those who have.

I usually work in a close office environment. Why should I be exposed to other staff members who’ve chosen not to be vaccinated?

I like the quote from one of the PP on the thread: “In a free society you get freedom of choice, not freedom from the consequences of those choices.”

I would advocate using our office space to minimise the contact with those who haven’t been vaccinated. I’m sure it won’t be long till we see the case law clarifying the legal position for employers.

[Motorina]

@PinkTonic - no, having the vaccine really isn't part of my job.

I say that as someone who's had it. Who reassured nervous colleagues to have it. Who has been singing it's praises loudly pretty much everywhere. I am an enthusiastic vaccine advocate, particularly for this one. I reckon anyone who can have it, should have it, including the OP's partner.

But having it isn't currently required under my - or anyone's - contract. The NHS trust I work for has gone down the route of supporting and reassuring, not compulsion (and has really good uptake).

Can employers impose a change of contract? Hmmm, well that's one for the lawyers to decide. I suspect it may depend on the job role and the risks it poses. Which is why the OP's partner needs to take advice from their union, not randoms online.

[reformedcharacters]

You touched lucky OP with the amount of legal experts hanging around MN this evening.

[Mumoftwoinprimary]

Fascinating case though - it is going to have to go to a tribunal to know for sure.

I’m wondering if it would be a redundancy situation for someone with more than 2 years service - could you argue that there are no service users who want to be cared for by an unvaccinated carer and so their role is redundant?