Vaccines, Vit D and Variants

[LemonSwan]

I am obviously missing something here because I was just comparing Vit D deficiency of COVID patients (over 80% of hospitalisations) with efficacy of vaccines in reducing hospitalisations..

*Its hard to track down the exact figures as they are changing them all the time. But heres what I have:
Pfizer 52% (1st dose) going to 95% (2nd)
Oxford 70% going to 80-90%
Novavax 89% after two.
J&J single shot 66%

Now we have the SA variant which is messing up the efficacy.
Oxford 10%
Novavax 60%
Pfizer - 'Very modest difference' - SA variant not an issue.

If the virus keeps mutating (which it seems hell bent on doing) then would if have been more effective for everyone to just take vit D tablets and why has this not been pushed more by the Gov. Theres tonnes of papers on this and I haven't heard a peep about it from GOV/NHS - to the point where when I bring up taking Vit D I feel like a conspiracy theorist or a pseudoscientist.

It seems such an obvious solution that I am either being mad or have utterly missed the point. Some one please let me know

Yes, I would like to tell people shielding who received the government supplement to seriously question the recommended dosage with their GP. It isn't defendable.
I don't think it's too outlandish to say that a charge of negligent homicide could be brought against the Government when there is a finally an enquiry. The boxes if vitamin bD they sent, and the SACN rapid reviews (not actual trials you'll notice) are there mitigating defence being prepared now.

stranger
Heres one where they had retrospectively looked at it - www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/11/3377

I understand the issue previous PP bought up that its not going to work for everyone as some people have issues with absorption. I am just musing that if the mutations are going to run away from the vaccine, then Vit D may have the potential to be as much/ or even more of a 'game changer' as a hypothetical hindered vaccine for people in this country deficient through lifestyle means - such as wearing spf, not spending enough time outdoors, being locked down all year. Its very low risk and they are suggesting it to Shielders so I am still confused why we didnt/dont have giant COVID posters at bus stops saying 'take x IU a day'.

(Not saying instead of a vaccine, just perplexed at 'game changer' status in vaccine vs barely mentioned Vit D if that makes sense).

Crackopenthegin
Thats what I found yesterday but it may be wrong.

*their mitigating defence. [Not there...]
I'm really not a crazy person who can't spell 🤣

lynsey
I am so sorry to hear that. My sincerest condolences

Never took any vitamins in the past but have been taking vitamin D an C for serval months now just a low dose cheap enough to buy so why not if it might help me fight of covid if I get it.

Yes some people don't absorb it too well.

Some people may take way above recommended dose for too long and end up too much in their system. (Sun exposure won't have that effect.)

Some people have medical issues (kidney and liver patients ?) that mean too much is risky to them.

I still think in a pandemic they should have been more encouraging of supplements to those of us who live up north, are covered up, indoors a lot or BAME.

Very interesting results from a Barcelona RCT released on the Lancet website yesterday, which did not use the vitamin D3 form used in other intervention studies. Instead, the team of Spanish doctors used calcifediol an active form and more potent analogue of the vitamin. Their results replicate the astounding results achieved by a pilot study last year with nearly 1000 patients:

Adjusted results showed a reduced mortality of over 60%. Higher baseline vit D3 levels were significantly associated with decreased mortality.Treated patients had an 82% reduced risk to require ICU.

This paper has yet to be peer reviewed, however calcifediol is ready to be used (if approved by NICE, groan) in NHS trusts right now. With 60% reduction in deaths, if only it could have been used as evidence last year.

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3771318

Second vaccine doses can't come soon enough, but 1000's are still dying each week. Once peer reviewed, this will prove scientific causality.

@Phyzzy

I haven't heard a peep about it from GOV/NHS It's been on the NHS website for years that people should take vitamin D in this country. CEV were sent Vitamin D in the post. I take it but don't see it as some kind of alternative to the vaccine. Don't you think if that had been the solution some clever scientist would have worked it out instead of a vaccine.

There have been many, many discussion about vitamin D on this board.

Very few people have read any of the papers behind their assertions.

There have been a fair number of stories about this in MSM: there are NICE and SACN guidelines and recommendations based on a literature review for both treatment and prevention.

I follow Dr John Campbell who does talks on all things covid as well as other medical issues. He's just done one on Vitamin D.

FWIW although I don't feel strongly either way I don't see it will do any harm and I take a higher dose than the shielding tablets. I had my vit D levels checked in December and the result came back graded adequate. However my level was 55 nmol which according to Campbell isn't high enough. So I increased my dose to 2500.

The UK has a trial in progress that will report later this year.

The NICE/SACN guidelines were updated x2 last year and will be updated with new appropriate evidence. I can't see the full text of the pre-print but if it's striking enough, I'd expect the NICE/SACN guidelines to be updated as NICE is moving towards living guidelines for fast-moving indications like COVID–19.

There are a hundred reasons why someone might have low vitamin D, and many of them are believed to lead to worse Covid outcomes in their own right

I'm nowhere near the right textbooks at present but infection itself lowers your vitamin D so I'm not surprised at low baseline levels in people who are ill. Unfortunately, it doesn't follow that correcting them (and that's a contentious area in itself for huge reasons) would help.

The Spanish trials that have so much air time - difficult to comment on the pre-print because I don't have the full text but as per the Cordoba one - it's not just vitamin D, it's administered with Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin, both of which are now deprecated for treating COVID–19. They all also received ceftriazone and dex if necessary. It's not a randomized trial but an observational one.

The SACN updates this year weren't worth the paper they were printed on.

@DianaT1969

The SACN updates this year weren't worth the paper they were printed on.

Have you critiqued the research papers and their interpretation of them or did they come to an opinion that differs from your own?

In Cordoba all patients were given the other medications. The outcome was completely different for the group given vitamin D.

I take multivitamins with extra high levels of Bs, D and C, have done for the last few years.

When I got COVID it a) didn't stop me getting it and b) I had it quite badly as well. Thing is, no-one can prove that I would have been hospitalised/died if I hadn't been taking the vitamins...however, I don't think it made any difference myself.

If it was so easy to cure with just vitamin D alone, don't you think it would have been rolled out long before the vaccines?

I'm sure a deficiency is unhelpful but to talk as though vitamin D is the cure-all and end-all is spreading mis-information, surely?

@WanderingMilly - what daily dose of vitamin D were you taking before Covid?
I ask because I was taking the recommended does along with other vitamins for a couple of years. Yet when I was tested in March last year I was low (19). Optimum is around 50 (debated but a general concenus).

@DianaT1969

In Cordoba all patients were given the other medications. The outcome was completely different for the group given vitamin D.

That doesn't read as a critique of their interpretation of the research as they indicate that they're aware of that.

I take it that you differ in your opinion as the the significance of this and whether it's generalisable to hospitalised populations in the UK.

Several people have been pushing vitamin D on these boards for months - even as far back as the first wave. I've been giving it to/ sending it to people since last March. BUT - there havent been enough trials for NICE to recommend it the levels I consider wise. It can be toxic in large enough doses, although you need pretty large doses for months.

The government have been whispering about supplementation, at least Matt has mentioned a small supplement a time or two. There should have been a funded clinical trial in this country last year, the trial that is going on now is inadequate, focused on prevention rather than treatment.

As there isnt enough proof it helps it's not a reason to avoid vaccination. the AZ vaccine is almost certainly more effective against the SA variant than your figures. A small trial in the young proves nothing. No-one died or was hospitalised but that could be for any number of reasons. Testing positive doesnt really matter if you are not seriously ill. T cell responses were good.

@WanderingMilly - just to be clear, I don't think the OP, or anyone else said it was a cure.
We're saying Covid exploits weak immune systems and many people are deficient in vitamin D. Not being deficient is a cheap and easily accessible preventive measure against getting a severe case of Covid/death.

Some trials have tried giving large doses to inpatients (Cordoba is a well known one you can Google the results). No companies will make money from trials because it is already invented and available. We need governments/health bodies to conduct clinical trials. The UK was late to the party with a 6-month trial at St. Mary's. But the dose is low. Lower than Europe or the USA recommends. So, I'm not hopeful it will prove anything either way.

Interpretation: In patients hospitalized with COVID-19, calcifediol treatment at the time of hospitalization significantly reduced ICU admission and mortality.

This was a vitamin D analogue intervention trial and was not an observational trial looking at correlation.

The Spanish clinical trial results published yesterday were conducted by a very experienced team of doctors on nearly 1000 patients. This was a robust study undertaken by experts in their field.

Meanwhile here in the UK, notably Newcastle Upon Tyne Hospital.

This trust is is nearly top of the performance charts. At this hospital, Dr Richard Quinton is prescribing one off high doses (200,000IU-300,000IU) of vitamin D3. Their low mortality figures are outperforming over 200 trusts in England.

@, EmbarrassingAdmissions - why mention the other drugs if they were given to all in the study? It isn't a differential.
It negates an interesting study that should have been scaled up in the UK. The results were published in September. We've had plenty of time to scale it up.
Do you know that PHE don't ask for, track or hold any data on vitamin D in Covid inpatients in the UK? That's how interested they are.

We definitely shouldn't be avoiding vaccination.
Vaccination is vital.

The words 'there isn't enough evidence' gives me rage!
Of all the things our government has spent money on (vaccines being a good investment), they absolutely should have spent money on a meaningful clinical trial in April/May.

Nope the government aren’t interested and it’s a shame people on here are picking arguments. A huge percentage of the population are deficient in this country. All adults and children should be supplementing throughout winter.

From my own personal research (and checking my levels) the recommended daily amount is too low.

Nobody here is saying it’s a cure for COVID. It’s a shame more studies haven’t been done and that many studies that alludes to it being important are pulled apart. There is so much evidence out there to show vitamin D (which is a hormone) plays a role in the seriousness of respiratory diseases. Not just Covid.

On a personal level I was part of a study on breast cancer and vitamin D. Different illness but I appreciate how important maintaining good levels are.

It’s like some posters just want to jump on any post about vitamin D and shout it down. I find that more irresponsible.

But I’ll take charge of my own health as the government clearly aren’t focused on this area. It’s a shame as it’s a quick, easy way to improve the health of the population. Maybe we’ll find out in years time that vitamin D was one the missing part of the COVID puzzle. But who wants to wait for years until every bloody study is peer reviewed?? Meanwhile thousands are dying. Taking safe amounts will cause no harm. I will do this for myself and my family.

Apparently taking Vitamin D can cause kidney damage, so is not recommended unless you are deficient in Vitamin D. I appreciate that people will want to weigh that risk against the risk of Covid and the possibility that Vitamin D helps against that.

I'm pretty sure that close to zero people have died of vitamin D3 overdosing in the last 12 months in the UK.

The NHS recommends that all adults take exactly the same daily vitamin D3 dose as a new born baby : 400IU.

Imagine that.