Are teachers more at risk from covid?

[notevenat20]

Did anyone listen to More or Less discuss this?

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rvjr

What do you think?

Depends on which data you look at : not for fatalities over the course of the pandemic they weren't. sadly, taxi drivers are still at high risk.

I think age, ethnicity and UHCs really probably are top considerations. I think the vaccine idea is a bit of a panacea myself.

haven't had time to listen to More Or Less yet, but I really wish the ONS would produce more date sensitive material , especially for jobs, like teaching , which have been in and out. Only then would we know how much risk teachers were at whilst in the workplace. It isn't just Mr Cleverclogs at More Or Less who pointed out the rubbishness of the NASUWT workings btw. Lots of teachers on MN were on to that the minute it came out.

Sarah Rasmussen's maligned, by some on MN, complaint about the ONS was actually upheld by the Statistics authority.

Wasn’t that complaint reacted to by ONS?

Anyway you’d still vaccinate according to risk wouldn’t you. Even if a part of that came from sex / age / other demographic

Yes, it was marsha although politicians, Jenny Harries and people on MN still quote it in its original form!

I would vaccinate according to risk in the main, yes. BAME workers remains a thorny topic as do healthcare workers to be honest. The stats don't actually suggest female nurses are high risk either.

The thing is that there are very simple things the DfE could do to make schools safer for kids and teachers. Really basic things like masks, which are used indoors pretty much everywhere else. Also ventilation, rotas.

Not taking basic safety steps is the worrying thing here. Clearly, teachers - even without masks - are probably at lower risk than care home workers or medics caring for covid patients. Particularly those who have not been given appropriate ffp2/3 masks (I've seen other threads about this and how dreadful it is).

But taking easy, cheap safety steps is important. We need to reduce risk EVERYWHERE we can. The scandalous thing is that DfE aren't doing this, at all. Don't even seem mildly interested in the steps being recommended by WHO and scientists everywhere, and being done to great success in other countries.

Reducing risk isn't just for the benefit of the teachers, it's for parents and kids too. There has been worrying stuff about long covid in kids recently not to mention PIMS which whilst very rare is dreadful so we should be doing anything we reasonably can to avoid the infections that precipitate it. If all kids wearing masks in lessons reduced 100 or 200 cases of PIMS in children, surely it would be worth it? Not to mention the kids WITH underlying conditions who seem to be completely thrown under the bus by most people advocating schools as normal.

Is it REALLY worth children having lifelong disability so that we can have school in the crowded, crappy, underfunded way we normally do in this country? Or maybe we should be pushing DfE to pull their finger out and fund safety measures.

My hunch is that teachers are at fairly high risk of contracting COVID, but perhaps not at particularly high risk of developing severe symptoms, as they tend to be fairly white and female in this country.

So, for example I found this.

www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news_landing_page/uk-has-worlds-5th-highest-rate-of-type-1-diabetes-in-children

It's a bit old but uk has the 5th highest rate of children with type 1 diabetes. So it's fine to just say - no, let's not bother with greater safety against airborne transmission in schools, is it? Let's just throw the dice for those kids?

I think that's barbaric when masks are so easily worn and kids from Spain, to France, to Italy to Korea wear them in classrooms from age 6.

@Piggywaspushed

Nurses are on the high risk list and so are bus drivers. See attached

@IloveJKRowling
exactly this. It's unforgivable that nothing is being done - I genuinely can't believe more parents aren't up in arms. Why do movements like Us for Them seemingly go from strength to strength but those of us who want schools to be safer can't get our voices heard?

@pinkpip100 - I agree, I don't know why normal people can't get their voices heard. Because the world has become toxic? Because there's a group of people intent on destroying all goodwill, all community spirit, and is only interested in enriching the 1% off the backs of normal people whose lives will get worse and worse?

Because most people probably agree that what could be done should be done but are desperately trying to keep their heads above water and don't have the energy or time for anything else? Because (as Dido the disaster Harding shows) those in power consist of a small group with connections and money rather than competence or expertise?

I'm surprised more people aren't up in arms about the shit conditions our kids have to put up with relative to other countries as a matter of course.

relative to other countries as a matter of course
Another vague one about how ‘other countries’ do it better!
How about actually naming those countries?
Nag, thought not ...MN echo chamber.
If you have any first hand evidence might be worth posting

I think it's widely accepted that education in the UK is less well funded than many other countries. Larger class sizes, narrower curriculum, less outdoor learning, lack of resources, over-reliance on testing, mistrust of teaching professionals' judgements etc. I'm thinking particularly of Scandinavian countries here but I think we would compare unfavourably with many other places too.

A specific example is that my friends in a particular US state have had a state provided laptop for their 6 year old from August. He went back to socially distanced desks, half time. Half time from home using his school laptop. Masks worn the entire time in the classroom, lots of outdoor activity, class sizes no more than 15 at a time in school. Their rates haven't gone up much and he's really thrived with the mixture of at home and in school learning (in some ways more than before). He knows he's doing his bit to protect his family and his community. He can see that the government is doing likewise.

I said upthread that schools in France, Italy, Spain have masks from age 6 - that's better for all those diabetic kids, kids with other underlying conditions or those with CEV parents or family.

Children in this country are not stupid. They know things are different worldwide, they know uniquely they are given no protection. My DD went back in June to half class sizes and socially distanced desks then back in Sept to normal class sizes and shoulders touching. She could see it was more risky. She knows she has to wear a mask in a shop. She's not an idiot.

What is this telling kids? That uniquely among almost all countries, this government is wiling to throw them, their families, their classmates with underlying conditions, their teachers and the wider community under the bus.

And apart from anything else they saw the shitshow that was December in schools (or spent it isolating at home and not even being able to leave the house).

Here's some statistics, UK has highest size of class at primary level.

It's very clear.

www.statista.com/statistics/1078190/students-per-class-in-europe/#:~:text=The%20United%20Kingdom%20had%20an,just%2015.9%20students%20per%20class.

This is from 2018, I'd think it's got worse since then rather than better. My DDs class is at least 29 (I can count 29 right now, I can't guarantee I haven't missed one or two).

What is this telling kids? That uniquely among almost all countries, this government is wiling to throw them, their families, their classmates with underlying conditions, their teachers and the wider community under the bus.

Yep, except sadly my 11 and 14 year olds have taken this to mean that their school is willing to do this to them. I have explained that the schools are not making these decisions (and my 15 year old gets this), but that is how they see it now. It's not filling them with confidence about going back, especially my Y7 dc who has only had a term in secondary school so far (and some of that spent at home isolating) and simply doesn't feel safe.

Yes daisy, male nurses. the rate for female nurses iirc is either the same , roughly, or lower than teachers, certainly male secondary teachers who have a higher rate.

Also daisy that is since March. Very few bus drivers have died since July. Not that it is OK how many died before then, before something was done.

@Piggywaspushed.

Read what I posted it states female nurses.

The stats were updated in January and are up to date.

Im leaving you to it, hopefully posters can see the attachments I posted and make their own judgements.

I can't find the post I wanted to reply to but it was surmising that parents must hate teachers.

I don't think they do.

I think many people (parents) think that some teachers overestimate their risk, which leads to frustration at the perceived overreaction, and resentment at being forced into unworkable positions because teachers refuse to work in certain circumstances - eg the mass refusal to work at the start of the term prior to school closures being announced was seen by many parents as a low political manoeuvre (the section 44 stuff and the large number of teachers who said they would only go in for KW/vulnerable kids).

I think many people (parents) think that some teachers overestimate their risk, which leads to frustration at the perceived overreaction, and resentment at being forced into unworkable positions because teachers refuse to work in certain circumstances - eg the mass refusal to work at the start of the term prior to school closures being announced was seen by many parents as a low political manoeuvre (the section 44 stuff and the large number of teachers who said they would only go in for KW/vulnerable kids).

But schools were closed in order to reduce community transmission, not because teachers felt unsafe. Also, in my opinion, given that they were working at close quarters with 30+ children (and often several other adults), with no masks, no social distancing, limited ventilation etc - school staff had every justification for invoking section 44. As a parent, I want my children's teachers to feel safe, as ultimately that will benefit my children.

@hobbyiscodefordogging

I can't find the post I wanted to reply to but it was surmising that parents must hate teachers.

I don't think they do.

I think many people (parents) think that some teachers overestimate their risk, which leads to frustration at the perceived overreaction, and resentment at being forced into unworkable positions because teachers refuse to work in certain circumstances - eg the mass refusal to work at the start of the term prior to school closures being announced was seen by many parents as a low political manoeuvre (the section 44 stuff and the large number of teachers who said they would only go in for KW/vulnerable kids).

Overestimate their risk?

I work in a small classroom in close proximity with 30+ children all day every day. There's no social distancing and even though the windows are open a bit the curtains are shut due to the sun. We don't wear masks.

That's not overestimating a risk. That's the truth. If you perceive it as as 'overestimation' then you're welcome to come and spend a week with me and see if you agree with my perception of risk

Oh and I haven't ever refused to work. I've worked from 7.30am today and it's my day off

@hobbyiscodefordogging

I can't find the post I wanted to reply to but it was surmising that parents must hate teachers.

I don't think they do.

I think many people (parents) think that some teachers overestimate their risk, which leads to frustration at the perceived overreaction, and resentment at being forced into unworkable positions because teachers refuse to work in certain circumstances - eg the mass refusal to work at the start of the term prior to school closures being announced was seen by many parents as a low political manoeuvre (the section 44 stuff and the large number of teachers who said they would only go in for KW/vulnerable kids).

I feel resentful that the government did not listen to school leaders or invest any money in risk mitigation measures in schools at all. You need to direct your comments to them as teachers often have very little autonomy within the average school. It is very difficult to influence school policy never mind policy at a governmental level.

My personal risk of catching Covid depends on the 32 families of children in my class as well as the other staff members I have regular face to face contact with. We are not expected to SD from children in our bubble (currently have 20 in lockdown usually 32.) No masks or visors allowed in classrooms and been told to close the window if children say they are cold. Poor ventilation, crowded indoor space and no masks is against SAGE recommendations for other workplaces.

I am getting on with it like the other teacher posters on here. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t talk about the working conditions on here for the sake of all school staff, the children we work with and their families and community. Many people think schools are the sane as those shown in the news with 5 children distanced in a huge classroom and the teacher wearing mask, visor and apron. The reality for many school staff is very different.

@Hardbackwriter

By the way, OP, you'll get people who are furious at you for even suggesting that teachers might not be at extremely high risk - the threads about the ONS study suggesting that their risk of death was much lower than many occupations were... unpleasant. I don't know why so many people are so attached to the idea that they're at really high risk and why they're angry rather than reassured by any data that suggests this isn't the case, but they really are.

Agreed @Hardbackwriter and well said.