If you are against the lockdown policy, what is your alternative?

[cheeseismydownfall]

I'm sure we all agree that lockdown is truly shit for so many reasons - the long term economic impact on the country and individuals, the knock on impact on other critical aspects of health care, the damage to children's education, the mental health crisis. I know many people feel very uncomfortable about the civil liberty aspect of lockdown. And I completely understand that many people are deeply angry with how the situation was handled, and feel that we would be in a better place now if the government had taken different decisions.

But for those of you who are 'anti lockdown' - what is the alternative, now we are in the position we are in? We saw after Christmas what will happen to the NHS if there is no effort made to check transmission. It will be overwhelmed. And the impact to society if the NHS fails seems pretty scary to me.

Shielding the elderly and vulnerable isn't practical in reality because of intergenerational dependence, so I think that is off the cards.

The only other option would seem to be utterly ruthless about triage, which would see covid patients left to die in their homes - forcibly restrained there if need be. That to me is the stuff of nightmares.

So what are the other options? This is not a goady post - I am genuinely interested in how other people would approach this.

@Nellodee would there be a shortage of nurses and doctors if people who were feeling fine, were not told they had to remain home for a lengthy period of time due to a test or contact tracing?

I find it difficult to place the cancellations on the let it rip side, because I do wonder just how many would be at home if it wasn't for the tests.

Yes, you could say if it wasn't for the tests then these people would spread it. But would they? Is the viral load as strong as a person displaying actual symptoms?

@LadyCounterblast Yes!

Shouldn’t we see a drop in the numbers of staff having to isolate/off sick with the vaccine rollout?

Re: vaccine rollout the maximum protection is meant to be from a week after the second dose so not many people are fully covered yet. But yes, my husband catching Covid a couple of weeks ago put me out of action for 10 days despite being vaccinated myself so I imagine there is still a lot of this situation going on.

@TheChip quite a few London hospitals had to convert their paediatric wards to Covid wards and also their operating theatres to makeshift ICUs so yes, letting it rip does cause cancellations.

That's not just over 85s though @bumbleymummy, and not a vast majority. Figures in January showed a quarter of covid inpatients were under 55. That's a lot of younger, likely to be working people.

@DameFanny

There is no need for the NHS to have no COVID patients before we open up. The NHS would be perfectly able to deal with 25% of the current patients.

The current restrictions are in place to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed- not to prevent anyone getting ill ever.

I think the phrase " perfectly able" is rather fantastical

There are many answers that involve going back in time and doing things differently several months ago, therefore changing the course of what theoretically happened afterwards.

I'm pretty sure the OP wrote "what is the alternative, now we are in the position we are in"

So, starting where we are, what would you propose?

@TheChip

The same way we deal with the flu. Maybe masks and social distancing when and where possible, but not mandatory.

I know this is all to save the NHS from being overrun, but isn't it the case every winter? They built those other hospitals and they are just sitting there.

We have tried lockdown and I dont believe it works. People say, "now can you imagine how it would be if we didn't lockdown?" But I cant imagine it being any worse. I really can't. I might be wrong, but we will never know. Because like they say, this is the new normal and so whenever it even looks like the NHS might have a bit of difficulty, everything else will have to grind to a halt.

Admit to not having yet read the whole thread but really, you can't imagine how it could be worse?

Think of pandemics in the past with people dying in their homes and others pushing carts around saying bring out your dead.

It might not have got that bad but the idea that you can just let this thing have free rein is ridiculous. NHS staff are on their knees trying to cope with the numbers.

It would probably burn out quicker if we went for a survival of the fittest strategy which, until relatively recently, would have been the only thing we could do but now I really don't think people would cope with people dying without medical attention in their droves and mass graves.

It doesn't help that as soon as lockdown is eased some people go mad rather than attempting to try as much as possible to continue to be ultra cautious.

The idea that as soon as something is allowed means that it must be safe is why lockdowns haven't been entirely successful in the long term. You cannot stay locked down for ever and so as soon as it is lifted off we go again.

@Dame Fanny. Many of whom are CEV and will therefore be vaccinated in group 4.

@Hellscape

Continue to vaccinate the elderly and vulnerable, then open up, as surely the hospitalisation rates should be much lower then?

This, of course. We have a clear way out of the worst of the pandemic now.

There needs to be more of a move towards /culture change that allows people to take time off when sick without risking jobs or punishment.
The price of lockdown is way too high right now. People are losing everything and domestic abuse and child abuse has rocketed.
A better solution would be prioritising the vaccination of essential workers above all others, and restrictions rather than lockdown. School kids going in on a rota system so social distancing is easier

@mumsneedwine

I agree. It's so much more than just schools. I think the 16-25 age group have been hit the hardest and need support. But they seem to be forgotten. Kids need different support, to socialise and learn new skills. There are ways we could do this, but they cost money.

Yes I have four in this age group. daughter is thoroughly miserable and depressed. Ds1 about to graduate and as his degree is sports related, it is going to be incredibly difficult to get into the career he had hoped. Teenagers I know have not been at their apprenticeships for a year so not learning and just hoping they will be extended.

I'm not anti lockdown at all but my plan would be if no lockdown -

• close borders like Australia, Isle of Man have done.
• really enforce punishments for those breaking rules like Isle of Man have done
• 24/7 vaccination centres

-lateral tests for all who want them

• schools on rota 50% for all kids including key worker kids - I am a key worker parent and know this would be really difficult but it would mean flexibility - eg I work four days out of the home but could do one weekend day and half a day of records etc at home while kids home then my kids would only need 50% school place. I've mentioned this in other threads and had posters saying it wouldn't work as they are teachers etc .. but it surely just needs carful planning- eg most teachers are doing a lot of virtual teaching which can be done from hone part of the week- and yes of course that's really hard with young kids at home but so many wfh parents are having to juggle meetings etc with kids at home ...those key workers in factories etc... may need to change working patterns , reduce hours etc etc while being topped up in furlough but it would be better than the current two tier system. I know so many parents found the November lockdown bearable because their kids were still in school.

Recruit more healthcare workers to treat covid patients. Plunge money into healthcare and incentivise people to care for each other. None of this "iSolAtIoN" bullshit no one even follows anyway (if your husband gets very sick, are you really going to NOT take care of him?)

People who want to isolate can do so if they want to.
People who want to continue living, working, acting as normal should have the basic rights to do so.
Nobody should be punished for working or seeing loved ones.

Other than that, treat it much the same as every other health condition on the planet.

The rights and liberties of healthy young people should not be removed because elderly people might live for one less year.

Quality of life over quantity of life.

To be honest I'd rather fully opening up after every lockdown, just back to normal. No restrictions at all (aside from travel restrictions, very large events and masks in medical settings and public transport). The social distancing, one way rules etc aren't making much difference overall and are making people miserable and killing businesses, sucking the joy out of life. Let the kids play and let us see our families and friends, go for a meal freely. If we have to lockdown again, knowing when we open up we will be pretty much free will make a huge difference, it should be give and take.

@Januaryissodull

Why?

Because, imo, they are the most vulnerable in n society and have no voice. Also because they are just starting out in life and deserve every chance.

I realise that will fill many on here with rage.

Children are not the most vulnerable.....fact

Still not seen anyone be able to show where their strategy has actually worked. Especially as we can't undo the past

@lunapeace

To be honest I'd rather fully opening up after every lockdown, just back to normal. No restrictions at all (aside from travel restrictions, very large events and masks in medical settings and public transport). The social distancing, one way rules etc aren't making much difference overall and are making people miserable and killing businesses, sucking the joy out of life. Let the kids play and let us see our families and friends, go for a meal freely. If we have to lockdown again, knowing when we open up we will be pretty much free will make a huge difference, it should be give and take.

I really hope this happens soon. I miss freedom.

[quote FizzyPepsi]@DameFanny

There is no need for the NHS to have no COVID patients before we open up. The NHS would be perfectly able to deal with 25% of the current patients.

The current restrictions are in place to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed- not to prevent anyone getting ill ever.[/quote]
I didn't say there was a need

I was pointing out the danger of infection to people with other diseases such as cancer... You're reading things that aren't there...

[quote bumbleymummy]@Dame Fanny. Many of whom are CEV and will therefore be vaccinated in group 4.[/quote]
Got a link to this data please?

I have a plan to end Lockdown

1. Close all hospitals to new admittances. No point in keeping open as will be overrun in no time, gives staff the chance to treat or release the remaining patients and then prepare themselves for step 2 onwards

1. Put a pile of bodybags at the end of every street.

1. Announce Lockdown has ended. Everyone has a free choice - go shopping if you want (and if any shops have chosen to open and can get staff in).

Enjoy your freedom! Yay!

@BMW6 sounds legit 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽😉