Covid Denier trys to take Covid patient home saying the virus isnt real

[Jenasaurus]

This is shocking

metro.co.uk/2021/01/26/covid-denier-told-hell-die-as-she-tries-to-take-oap-from-hospital-13965466/

As I started to read that I assumed it was in the States.

So sad. I'm not watching as it would do my blood pressure no good.

The poor staff.

@frumpety - in the 20 minute youtube video he said he had it. He also said that the hospital thought they had it. So who knows??

I am not a lawyer, and I rarely get involved with power of attorney at work, so I will defer to experts. But my understanding is that if it's a power of attorney for health, and it is active, and the patient lacks capacity, then the person with POA can make consent decisions on the patient's behalf.

But there's a big but... a patient with capacity can refuse treatment for any damnfool reason they want. So if they want to refuse a covid vaccine because covid isn't real, or won't have fillings because they're worried about being controlled by aliens, or decline care because their religion forbids whatever, then that's their choice. However, someone with power of attorney has a legal duty to act in the best interests of the person they're making decisions on behalf of, so if the decisions are daft then the attorney can be overridden by a court in a way an individual won't.

This whole situation is a mess. The poor patient. But equally, please don't sit at home and judge the man causing problems. It's not a case of him being stupid, most likely (granted, I don't know exactly) People act in that way because of fear in combination with feeling they have no control and I'd guess something having gone wrong for them in the past linked to authority. In his mind, if he genuinely feels the virus is a conspiracy he might have been going into that environment thinking that friend of his was at risk. He was trying to help him. You don't do that kind of thing because you're just generally an idiot. He sounds very panicked and backed into a corner in the video.

I feel more sorry for the patient, of course I do, as well as the medics who had to deal with it but I think all the judgement thrown around in the last year hasn't helped anyone. People react differently under chronic pressure. I have an otherwise perfectly intelligent friend on FB adamant she will refuse the vaccine because 'people have died having had it and it's been covered up.' That's not stupidity, again, it's fear. And I was in hospital once as a patient and there was a dad behaving in this way with the doctors treating his young son - he was desperately convinced he had to get his son out as the doctors were killing his child. It was awful witnessing that panic and aggression but I'm sure doctors see it a fair bit here and there even out of a pandemic.

@SquishySquirmy

What an embarrassing idiot.

But if the unwell man wants to leave hospital, part of me thinks they should let him, even though he will die. Unless he is judged to lack the capacity to make that decision? I thought that people can refuse treatment? Would free up a bed.

This

@Aprilrainbow

Covid & other things like Qanon have highlighted what a high proportion of the population are extremely stupid, far higher than most people had realised.

I've been researching ths recently. It's something like 70% of people are stupid.

If you have capacity, you have the right to discharge. But anyone with oxygen saturations of 73% who says they want to leave hospital is lacking capacity. Because if they had capacity, they would understand that oxygen saturations of 73% are as close to death as a conscious person is likely to get.

So if they were saying "I know that if I take my oxygen mask off I will die, but I'm prepared to do that and I am ready to die" that would be one thing. People do make those decisions - refusing a tracheostomy because they know they couldn't stand to live with one, and understanding that they are going to die from secretion build up if they don't have it, for example. But the point is, they make those decisions with a reasoned discussion with their consultant, who makes a judgement about their ability to make that decision.

People aren't stupid, I think. They just don't realise that with oxygen saturations, even 1% is huge. For context, staff get twitchy if the saturations are 94% and start thinking about oxygen (COPD aside). At 93% or 92% they want to know that it's going to go up with oxygen. At 90% they're really worried. Less than that, well it's not good at all. 73% is frankly terrible.

What a shocking example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Being replete in Vit C, D and Zinc on the day of infection may be supportive and thus it is all over the net but the suggestion that it could do what steroids do once you are in the cytokine storm and co-morbid infection period is laughable. That Doctor has the patience of a saint to listen to that deluded man and talk to him in a reasoned way.

Also those on here presuming the patient has capacity - having low oxygen, being on steroids and having infections often causes confusion, agitiation and delirium . Really not unusual on a ward to have patients on that regime demanding discharge but kind treatment and talk usually calms them, they are not to be used as pawns by deluded, power hungry lockdown skeptics.

Agree with @lougle re: capacity.
I find it almost impossible to believe a thorough mental capacity assessment would have concluded this individual had the capacity to discharge himself.

I wonder if there’s any monetary gain for this idiot if the patient dies .

Can I just say that prior to Covid Drs and Nurses have been dealing with families and people like this for years. Disruptive, aggressive behaviours towards HCP - not just a covid issue sadly.

I wonder if there’s any monetary gain for this idiot if the patient dies

Funny, that was my first thought but I am a cynical old bat

If the patient had turned around when the Doctor said he would die if he left and said 'I know Doctor but that is what I want' I could understand the situation better, but the poor man said he wouldn't die, he was in denial or not able to comprehend how unwell he actually was. That leaves the medical staff in a difficult position, if they let him leave without being sure that he fully understood the consequences of his actions and he died before reaching the carpark, where would that leave them ?

@Lougle

"People aren't stupid, I think. They just don't realise that with oxygen saturations, even 1% is huge. For context, staff get twitchy if the saturations are 94% and start thinking about oxygen (COPD aside). At 93% or 92% they want to know that it's going to go up with oxygen. At 90% they're really worried. Less than that, well it's not good at all. 73% is frankly terrible."

Totally agree. Now I hardly bay an eyelid at sats 88-92% as this is what we are now expecting. How times have changed.
My patients come in rushed with sats of 76 and below , we then spend what feels like an eternity trying to stabilise them.
I watched that video and felt my blood boil.
Nice to know the police are now looking for him in case he's got covid himself now. Why they didn't detain him then - but I suppose why would they?
Will he waiver treatment in return of a glass of orange juice and a multivitamin tablet

@frumpety

Did he say he personally had power of attorney or did he ask the Doctor if he did *@Motorina* ? it was a bit hazy in the video ? Does power of attorney mean you can withdraw or withold treatment for any reversible condition ? So if you had power of attorney could you refuse to allow all treatment for any ailment or accidental injury regardless ?

If you have power of attorney to make decisions about health and well-being you still have to act in the persons best interests. It would be difficult to argue that removing them was in their best interest in these circumstances and therefore can be challenged

Just seen he has been arrested.

@LIZS

Just seen he has been arrested.

Excellent

Just seen he has been arrested
Good , his video on YouTube made me cringe, what a self important twat .