Primary schools back sooner than expected?

[deeplybaffled]

It’s hard to know what to believe, but PHE now seem to be suggesting that primary schools can safely return after half term - which seems to contradict all other recent reports and government comments
focussing around Easter!

Possibly @CrackOpenTheGin it was a bit of both but not all down to the Unions as they simply have never had that power over the Government!

@CrackOpenTheGin

Nope I don’t have a source. I’m sure the NEU have some data on their website somewhere. But anecdotally I have 18 teacher friends. 13 submitted them, 4 didn’t but were then asked to by their headteacher. So that’s a hell of a lot although a very small sample size admittedly. Schools would not be able to function is just one or two from each school submitted them... which they would.

There are rumours that the NEU are going to ballot their members for strike action or advise nursery staff to hand in section 44s. There is a big announcement today at 5pm tonight.

Just a question, if they are no higher risk than many other occupations then why strike? I would totally understand strike action if the occupation carried more of a risk but it was shown that it doesn't.

If the teaching union organised some form of petition etc to make schools safer then I and many other parents would be happy to sign. I think the government need to fund changes so that schools can be safer so that although teachers are at no greater risk the risk could be reduced even further.

@MNnicknameforCVthreads

I think it's also relevant to quote these statistics (for full source see the Data thread, 18.59 post from yesterday):

60.9% of deaths have occurred in the 5.1% of the population that is over 80
89.7% of deaths have occurred in the 18.5% of the population that is over 65

Only 1% of deaths have occurred in people under 45 (917 people)
This increases to 10.3% for people under 65 (9,321 people)

Yes, yes there will always be teachers and children who are more vulnerable to Covid (along with many other infections/illnesses) and they should be protected.

The fact remains that this disease is of vanishingly small risk to children, and barely more of a risk to teachers than the car journey to work or their lack of exercise and healthy diet,

Absolutely.

Now please do the same for the numbers in hospital. In wards, HDU and ICU. Their ages etc.

This isn't about who will die. This is about overwhelming the NHS which will happen again if it's taken out into the community.

50% of hospitalisations are under 65's.

I'm going to follow the advice from the welsh government - I look through the scientific evidence to and listen to the briefings

If they think there is headroom to allow primaries back after half term I'll be delighted - if not I won't be pushing for them to open before it's felt it's safe

I think that's a perfectly reasonable way to act.

Fancied that's interesting. Unison have a big meeting at 5pm too 🤔

Oh please I hope they do. Even in small groups a few days a week. I know a parent who is against the schools opening, she’s mouthing of on fb. But her children are in already. She fucked a few people off!!

@CrackOpenTheGin

Nope I don’t have a source. I’m sure the NEU have some data on their website somewhere. But anecdotally I have 18 teacher friends. 13 submitted them, 4 didn’t but were then asked to by their headteacher. So that’s a hell of a lot although a very small sample size admittedly. Schools would not be able to function is just one or two from each school submitted them... which they would.

There are rumours that the NEU are going to ballot their members for strike action or advise nursery staff to hand in section 44s. There is a big announcement today at 5pm tonight.

Wouldn't the time to have done this been a few weeks ago? Cases are dropping now so to weakens the hand a bit dosent it?

(Genuine question not intended to be snarky!)

I think there will be a strong case to reopen primary schools in areas of low case numbers after half term - at the moment there's only a handful of places - North Devon, and a couple of Scottish areas. I expect with cases dropping 25% per week by 22nd Feb there will be many more areas with very low rates.

However I think the government will wait until March 1st to reopen them.

1. It is not only/mainly about deaths of kids or teachers. The kids are spreading. Meaning that they may be spared from even a cough, but their parents, friend's parents, shopkeepers, etc have a bigger chance of getting it.

1. Safer schools are needed to be able to open up again. But as far as I can tell, it's not going to happen, because public opinion is black and white and any thinking skills or assumption that there is any on an individual level should be thrown out the window.

1. many cite MH and education, but to be fair what they mean is:

• I can't tolerate my own kids 24/7
• fuck education I want them out the door
• it's about economy and work (fair point, but shouldn't be - gov should help financially)

@Hollyhead

I think there will be a strong case to reopen primary schools in areas of low case numbers after half term - at the moment there's only a handful of places - North Devon, and a couple of Scottish areas. I expect with cases dropping 25% per week by 22nd Feb there will be many more areas with very low rates.

However I think the government will wait until March 1st to reopen them.

That could happen - or even part time until Easter which provides a natural fire break

They aren't just going to turn the tap on and allow a wholesale open at once and primary is the likely place to start

@itsgettingweird

The one thing that Cerberus me about the "open all schools regardless of transmission and risk due to mental health" posters is they are ignoring a huge point.

It will not do any child's mental health any good if they bring it home and a parent ends up hospitalised, with long term health issues or god forbid dies. Or parents lose jobs because high numbers keep longer lockdowns. Increased poverty etc.

That guilt will last a lifetime.

I'm absolutely not denying it's affecting children MH. I also won't deny it'll affect their education.

This is why we need a huge cash injection when this is over to support pupils. They'll get through the short term difficulties with support.

I take your point, and you're absolutely right for those individuals affected. But this is a numbers game. More children are going to be adversely affected by a long time out of education and away from socialising opportunities etc than those who lose a parent (by death or long term illness).

That's before you take into account the horrendous cases not making the news where children are actually being abused or neglected. I can't help wondering that these are higher than is being acknowledged.

Wouldn't the time to have done this been a few weeks ago? Cases are dropping now so to weakens the hand a bit dosent it?

(Genuine question not intended to be snarky!)

To be honest I agree with you there. It may be about nurseries as I know a lot of nursery staff feel unsafe with full classes.

Yes - I think many parents will start to get extremely pissed off if they live in an area where there hasn't been a case for 30 miles in a week and schools are closed. There isn't quite anywhere like that on the map yet (other than maybe North Devon) but the green areas of the coronavirus data map are emerging and starting to spread. And remember, the data is 5 days old, which means the transmission is on average 10 days old. So 10 days ago spread was reduced to this level, so the current picture is likely to be better.

@CrackOpenTheGin

Wouldn't the time to have done this been a few weeks ago? Cases are dropping now so to weakens the hand a bit dosent it?

(Genuine question not intended to be snarky!)

To be honest I agree with you there. It may be about nurseries as I know a lot of nursery staff feel unsafe with full classes.

School nursery isn't open here only the childcare provision ones - as private companies and I know many of them were worried

@Hollyhead

I think there will be a strong case to reopen primary schools in areas of low case numbers after half term - at the moment there's only a handful of places - North Devon, and a couple of Scottish areas. I expect with cases dropping 25% per week by 22nd Feb there will be many more areas with very low rates.

However I think the government will wait until March 1st to reopen them.

We are in Torridge - the numbers here are really low 59 in 100,000 so no real need to keep our primaries shut. Some areas such as Torrington have barely had any infections during the entire pandemic. Rural communities are very different to city living.

@HauntedPencil

That's a really sensible approach. I think many posters here (myself included) could take a leaf out of your book! It would possibly do our own mental health some good!

@TheSunIsStillShining

1. It is not only/mainly about deaths of kids or teachers. The kids are spreading. Meaning that they may be spared from even a cough, but their parents, friend's parents, shopkeepers, etc have a bigger chance of getting it.

1. Safer schools are needed to be able to open up again. But as far as I can tell, it's not going to happen, because public opinion is black and white and any thinking skills or assumption that there is any on an individual level should be thrown out the window.

1. many cite MH and education, but to be fair what they mean is:

• I can't tolerate my own kids 24/7
• fuck education I want them out the door
• it's about economy and work (fair point, but shouldn't be - gov should help financially)

Why would wanting my child in school equate with wanting them out the door and disliking them? Would you have said this about any previous generation? What about the ones who fought for free schooling for all as a right?

I like having DD at home. I have taken over her education and it's going well. I recognise it's not about me, it's about her she was learning things in school I can't teach her that are fundamental to her development and wellbeing. I'll miss her but I know schools are there for a good reason.

On a wider scale schools are funded and recognised as a critical service. When the fallout from this becomes fully apparent do you really believe there will be adequate resources to address it? We'll be in a severe recession, probably a depression. Prevention is a lot cheaper and more effective than other health interventions.

*3. many cite MH and education, but to be fair what they mean is:

• I can't tolerate my own kids 24/7
• fuck education I want them out the door
• it's about economy and work (fair point, but shouldn't be - gov should help financially)*

FFS. Spoken entirely subjectively by someone who clearly has none of the following non-exhaustive list:

• children struggling mentally
• children refusing to engage with home learning
• money worries about food/additional heating/other utilities
• shortage/total lack of devices on which to do home learning
• shortage/lack of parents able to help with the home learning

If only people were able to see outside their very tiny bubble in which they are ok, and therefore everyone else should be, and anyone that isn't is just a shitty lazy parent.

@Freetigerking

Oh please I hope they do. Even in small groups a few days a week. I know a parent who is against the schools opening, she’s mouthing of on fb. But her children are in already. She fucked a few people off!!

Wow she has some brass neck

The reason why parents have give up suggesting safety measures is that every single suggestion gets jumped on with ‘that’s ridiculous’ ‘we couldn’t possibly do that’.

I suggested marquees for outdoor learning last June. Was jumped on for it being a ridiculous suggestion.
Yet DS1’s school has many marquees and has used them throughout Autumn. His secondary school has only had a handful of cases.

I do wish the government would throw money at schools. Many other sectors have had so much support.
And yes learn from other countries. Do masks work for kids in school? If so I’m happy for older primary schools kids to wear them.

I’m happy with part time. With rotas. Do outdoor PE sessions more. Kids come to school layered up. Just do something.

M*Nnickname
*
Again good points. And totally shows the absolute difficulty in this balancing act.

There are perfectly valid and statistically backed arguments from all sides.

This thread has been great as people are actually discussing and listening to each other.

We can all give reasons why we have our viewpoint. I wouldn't want to be making this decision - that's for sure.

@Abraxan

I think for the younger children 2 days in 3 days off might work better in terms of the more regular contact and a chance each week to see friends, play and socialise, and do some core English, maths and phonics. It also frees staff up 1 day a week for PPA, prep, sorting remote learning tasks, and all the other admin, plus the cleaning between groups. Remote learning 3 days a week for the other foundation subjects, daily reading and some maths/English.phonics tasked based on the work they did in school.

So maybe 50% in Monday/Tuesday
Wednesday - PPA day for staff; cleaning day
Thursday/Friday other 50% in

I agree - my own would benefit from this BUT the big issue is that KW children will still have to be in the whole week. Def can't just have Wednesday off - so they would need to be dealt with separately and schools mostly cannot accomodate this .

@Delatron the main issues for schools trying to come up with creative ideas is money (and the Government telling them they can’t use other buildings, rotas etc)

I’ve said all along that primaries will go back after Feb half-term, so Mon 22nd Feb - that’s plenty of time, still 4 weeks to go. Many more will be vaccinated by then. Time to pull ourselves together and stop hiding under the duvet. Hospitals are supposed to be full of sick people. It is normal to catch a virus in the winter. So long as numbers don’t overwhelm, we have to get back to normal.

I don't think it's sensible to open schools more widely until the NHS is safely out of he danger spot of being overwhelmed. This is likely to happen at different times in different areas/parts of the country and so perhaps the further opening of schools needs to be done based on a tier basis? Would make sense to also prioritise certain year groups returning e.g. reception, Y1 and Y6 first and perhaps to also look at rota systems etc.
It makes me really concerned if the proposal will be just open up primaries fully with no additional safety measures and no consideration given to how the local hospitals are coping etc.