So it looks like we're being prepared for children not to go back until after Easter

[choosingcrumble]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/children-face-months-at-home-as-schools-stay-shut-until-easter-wp5ltpm82?fbclid=IwAR1l0gRSzuJLIv508reRmBEojbYfoGOsWwe3_pBFmKpA4EbI1IgC5dKC2uE

I suspected it wouldn't be until then, let's just hope that it doesn't stretch into the summer.

@Nellodee

Secondary maths teacher here, and hand on heart, I can absolutely say that I am delivering a more effective education to more students in lockdown than I was from October to December. If we returned to the classroom without doing anything to reduce spread within the student population of the school, (especially given that this year we are dealing with the new variant, and I am basing my observation on the old variant) then many students would receive a worse education, not a better one.

This is not to say there are not advantages in terms of student mental health, though I think if they did not experience it first hand, people underestimate how stressful being in and out of school was, particularly for exam year students who were well aware that some of them were receiving much less teaching than other students in the same group. I think we should separate the issue of mental health from the issue of education, in that it may be possible to come up with solutions for improving mental health in teenagers that do not involve opening schools.

This is a very important point. My year 11 dd had four separate lots of isolation last term. She is getting much more education since lockdown. Her mental health was at rock bottom last term when she was in and out of school , she actually cried when she had been back four days to be sent home again not being allowed out of the house.

Me too Nellodee.

The quality of work I’m getting back is outstanding! Mostly done on the computer, fewer SPAG errors...pupils can check own work. Work handed in on time as deadlines are clear and much better independent research happening. (I work in a deprived area as well.)
No half-measures due to isolations.
Some pupils are thriving, which is wonderful, although I am secondary, so I’m sure that makes a difference.

@ChevyCamaro yes, schools were unsafe for teachers, but if you think that's why they shut, you don't understand how this government works. They are shut because they affect the national R of the virus and we do not have the infrastructure to cope with the amount of sick and dead people we would have if they were open.

Of course there will still be community spread. You can't eradicate that. But teachers were on here for months saying they were scared and unsafe..so, once the very old and the very vulnerable are vaxxed ( happening at a good clip now) and the teachers are also vaxxed, surely the community spread will put a less severe strain on hospitals? And teachers will no longer be so at risk??

Obviously safety measures will need to be put in place in school. The vaccine doesn't stop you getting the virus or passing it on.

PPE, ventilation and social distancing. Rota system if social distancing isn't possible.

@MarshaBradyo

Tax how will you maintain these current small class sizes?

In some primaries they are at 50% capacity. If you want all dc in school bit smaller class sizes how will you get non KW in?

Add to 50% or displace

You’re asking the wrong question there, as clearly there’s nothing I can do about it. The right question is “How will the government maintain these current small class sizes?”

And if class sizes can’t be maintained, why not other mitigations?

As no surprise the mums and teachers of MumsNet are polarised with seemingly the usual but unnecessary binary issue of fully reopening in person schools, compared to current blended approach with most remote schooled but some schools with more children attending to breach common sense social distancing requirements.

How about being fairly democratic and allow all options?!

No compulsion as true options! Teachers who want to return to a classroom with children can do so. Obviously if not enough available teachers for in person schooling then schools without adult supervision will be unlikely to remain open.

Likewise all children who would prefer to return can do so. All need to be repeat negatively tested first as with all in school.

Options too on further testing and use of PPE etc as evidently there is a variation of scientific understanding and personal interpretation. Not sure why children globally wear face coverings but optional (but unlikely) in the UK.

Options too on vaccination as there are never enough antivaxxers when they are helpful in a global vaccines shortage. Therefore you will either wait your turn as according to the science on vulnerability but have the option to refuse vaccination. You are opting for extra risks of in person schooling so should understand that you are doing so according to set vaccination priorities protocols. This naturally applies to parents as no extra priority other than on age and medical vulnerability of preexisting medical conditions and not knowingly extra potential exposure to risks.

Those who elect to teach in person and pupils who prefer to attend in person with many others in an enclosed non ventilated environment daily for hours face to face agreed to a legal health and safety waiver.
Naturally this will not be an issue for the brave and those with healthy risk appetite or non believers etc. Especially relevant for those that say up thread unhelpfully that you will die anyway. That is very true as no one is immortal but this is possibly an once in a hundred year pandemic.

The pandemic science evidence recorded in schools is self explanatory (hence why most are actually closed!) but if you want to take the risk then so be it and please consider those on Covid ICU oxygen and ventilator waiting lists as you may not necessarily be at the front of the stretched overwhelmed queue given your preference for known and foreseeable consequential risks.

This will work perfectly in non or controlled Covid geographies like New Zealand etc but possibly not so much in high density ongoing world record breaking per capita daily Covid fatalities societies like much of the UK etc. However you may (unlikely) be in the only place in the land with no Covid and much underused NHS capacity and if so should not be under a blanket ban but work as appropriate to your Covid locality status.

Therefore some will continue to think long term and hibernate for eventual better years ahead versus those that want instant gratification and take the known risks. No more arguments and that way we can find a stupid but possible "solution" to the diversity of wishes and demands. No more joined up united community we are all in this together thinking as each to their own and literally back to cave man survival of the fittest. How does that sound? As seemingly this sums up most of the up thread posts?! Mind boggles.

@LucyLockdown isn't the current guidance to stay indoors and excerise once daily? If your children are playing out are there no other children also playing out or do you have the benefit of a large garden they can play together without anyone else nearby?
You realise there will be some children without any siblings to play with and without access too any outside space?

And also I never said they should be mixing now, I said it should be relaxed before Easter if that's the current time frame we are putting on schools being able to open

It is sad but obvious this was going to happen.

Does nobody else think we should be doing some sort of immunity testing for school aged children to get an idea of how many are actually immune? That could make a massive difference to how/when schools go back.

@LucyLockdown, I’ve been impressed by how our district has handled things. In a school of 400 children, having 7 or 8 cases since September isn’t bad at all. And my children have definitely been learning and progressing really well.

Each district is autonomous in the US, able to do their own thing and make their own financial decisions, but most towns around here have also implemented a hybrid schedule and heavy use of PPE.

Does nobody else think we should be doing some sort of immunity testing for school aged children to get an idea of how many are actually immune?

Having had the virus doesn't necessarily mean you are immune so this would be useful from a data perspective but pointless as a safety measure.

@ineedaholidaynow

Giving jabs to the teachers is good for the teachers but what about the pupils who can still catch it and transmit it.

Then they isolate. This is EXACTLY what is frustrating. From the same group of posters on day 1 on MN it’s been about risks to teachers. Teachers being forced to stand in front of classes of potentially infected children. Teachers not being allowed to wear masks. Teachers having to touch potentially infectious children. Now you have s potential solution to that and all of a sudden the goalposts change? Now it’s all about the greater good and the impact on society? And yada yada yada to the name calling and the insults that will inevitably follow this post. It would just be refreshing to hear from some of the great teachers out there who are genuinely concerned about the welfare of s generation of kids ( emotionally and mentally as well as physically) without their voices being drowned out by the same people thread after thread after thread. The people who have no intention of returning to the jobs they are being paid to do.

Basically they are breaking the university sector with this. There won't be many universities left after this.

@Nellodee

Secondary maths teacher here, and hand on heart, I can absolutely say that I am delivering a more effective education to more students in lockdown than I was from October to December. If we returned to the classroom without doing anything to reduce spread within the student population of the school, (especially given that this year we are dealing with the new variant, and I am basing my observation on the old variant) then many students would receive a worse education, not a better one.

This is not to say there are not advantages in terms of student mental health, though I think if they did not experience it first hand, people underestimate how stressful being in and out of school was, particularly for exam year students who were well aware that some of them were receiving much less teaching than other students in the same group. I think we should separate the issue of mental health from the issue of education, in that it may be possible to come up with solutions for improving mental health in teenagers that do not involve opening schools.

Same here. Secondary teacher of non core subject. Quality of my remote lessons far superior to lessons in non specialist classrooms from September-December.

You’re asking the wrong question there, as clearly there’s nothing I can do about it. The right question is “How will the government maintain these current small class sizes?”

so no solution to size issue beyond double school and staff resource ok let’s wait for that. All for it.

While we’re waiting masks great, ventilation fab. Anything else?

Are you up for all students back in with masks and ventilation?

@ChimaeraEgg

Does nobody else think we should be doing some sort of immunity testing for school aged children to get an idea of how many are actually immune?

Having had the virus doesn't necessarily mean you are immune so this would be useful from a data perspective but pointless as a safety measure.

Recent studies have shown immunity from infection last 5-8+ months. I’m also talking about testing for immunity , not just asking who had a positive test. That could also be useful information to gather though in that it might give more of an idea about the level of asymptomatic infections amongst children - who has immunity and has a record of a positive test (and how long ago) and who has immunity but has never taken a test/had symptoms.

I'd be happy with small groups for outdoor PE from March. As long as teachers are vaccinated by then.
The logistics and the fact loads of kids hate PE would make it almost impossible though.

Now you have s potential solution to that and all of a sudden the goalposts change?

Don't know if you've noticed but the situation has changed? Schools are closed, hospitals are overwhelmed, death rates are sky high?

Taking data into account when forming opinions and updating them in the light of new information is quite an important skill.

I think rotas after half term would be possible, but they'd probably take time and money to organise.

I think most people agree that secondary school students cope better with online learning, right? And they are also more likely to spread the virus. So we get them in on a rota basis, say once a week- full socially distanced, just for support.

This wouldn't take up the full capacity of a secondary school, though. So we use the available space, with supply teachers to help, if needed, to get primary school students in more regularly, again on a rota basis, with social distancing etc to give them a chance to socialise and have the support from teachers that they desperately need.

It would cost money, of course. You'd need extra staff to facilitate it. And it might not be super convenient for parents.

But it would be better for kids than no school at all. I also think a regular rota would be better for most people than the constant in/out of bubble closures and school closures that was happening at the end of last term- this was massively disruptive, and I'd like to avoid that again at all costs.

It would also take a lot of logistical planning- so we'd need to be organising it now.

The problem is the DfE (or more probably, Gavin Williamson) aren't willing to consider creative solutions or spend more money. So they only options they'll accept are pretty much all or nothing- which will leave primary schools especially fully closed for longer.

@HermioneWeasley

I’m considering CEV. My first vaccination isn’t till June. My second isn’t till late august September....

I can't even read this thread it's too depressing.

doublefaced Six of us caught covid in my class. If I had been vaccinated I may not have caught it but the other children would have. In one family alone the student passed it on to her siblings / parents and grandparents and put one of them in hospital. This would continue to happen even if teachers are all vaccinated. Can you not see the issue of wider community transmission ?
Fwiw I am I school full time as is every member of staff in my school due to the number of kw/v children currently attending. This isn’t about teachers not wanting to do their jobs.

@noblegiraffe

Now you have s potential solution to that and all of a sudden the goalposts change?

Don't know if you've noticed but the situation has changed? Schools are closed, hospitals are overwhelmed, death rates are sky high?

Taking data into account when forming opinions and updating them in the light of new information is quite an important skill.

Not in some areas though. Some areas have very low numbers. I don’t think school closure should be a country wide policy. Reopening should really be based on infection levels rather than an arbitrary date.

@ineedaholidaynow

Giving jabs to the teachers is good for the teachers but what about the pupils who can still catch it and transmit it.

Yes, good for teachers' personal health. If and when they receive two jabs and enough time passes to ensure a decent amount of protection. They will be protected from terrible illness.

But this doesn't ensure THEY themselves won't catch and transmit it; to elderly parents, children in their classes, supermarket workers who serve them...

Vaccinating teachers doesn't mean you can allow mixing of more than thirty households in a crowded, badly ventilated room, with no masks or distancing, for hours at a time.

The thing is it is reasonable foreseeable that by November 2021 there will be a new strain that has taken hold and current vaccinations won’t be effective or as effective. So the NHS will be overwhelmed again. It is a question of working out how many extra deaths it means and if those extra death means the rest of the country need to give up a proportion of their lives, the sacrifices for some are much greater than for others.

The virus thrives in cold weather and affects the elderly and those with health conditions more than the young. I mean the virus might be a virus that has evolved to get rid of the ill and the sick that have been kept alive by modern health care systems and will continue to evolve to infect them one way or another, despite lockdowns, what then? Countries with younger populations and warmer weather have less of a problem.

Many people do not believe this a temporary situation anymore so solutions need to be found to educate children in person now. Other countries have managed it better - why can’t we? On the education front we are definitely failing our young compared to other countries, and that is where we need to be looking. That is why a court case would be interesting, an actual judgment on all the facts and minimum standards etc.