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Why do nhs admin staff need the vaccine before teachers?

182 replies

BrutusMcDogface · 17/01/2021 20:47

Just that.

I really want to understand why someone who works in an office, away from any patients (and doesn’t even have to go through any corridors that patients will have gone through) get through vaccine, when teachers/school staff don’t?

Of course I don’t begrudge nhs staff their vaccine; absolutely on the contrary. But why aren’t teachers/school staff somewhere on the priority list? Particularly those who are working with children with SEND; all vulnerable, many of whom need personal care.

Please help me to understand.

OP posts:
Coislaoi · 18/01/2021 00:04

Admin staff are being redeployed to wards to cover the ward's permanent admin staff who are off sick. Also admin staff work in outpatients reception areas and have contact with patients attending clinics and diagnostic units. Just because they are admin doesn't necessarily equate to them being non patient facing. Therefore it makes sense for them to be vaccinated before teachers.
FWIW I'm a nurse in a large inner city police station and we have to wait with the general public for our vaccination. Daily we're coming into contact with confirmed covid positive patients, my nursing and police colleagues are succumbing to Covid at an exponential rate. Not all healthcare staff are being prioritised unfortunatelySad

Haenow · 18/01/2021 00:16

@GrumblyMumblyisnotJumbly

Health and social care workers work with people who are at higher risk if they have Covid. In care homes, it’s not the residents popping down to Tesco, getting infected and spreading it. The outbreaks come from the care staff, the visiting GP and the district nurse etc. This is why they must be vaccinated. It is nowhere near on the same level as teachers! There is a very strong argument for SEN teachers to be included with this cohort though. I am unclear as to why they’re not.

Fungster · 18/01/2021 00:19

I feel the same as you, OP. My friend- a perfectly healthy 45 year old who lives alone - was vaccinated this week. She works in a hospital legal department. Not patient facing, or even needing to walk into the main part of the hospital. My kids are supposed to go back to school next month after 11 months at home, and not a single teacher in the district has been called up for theirs yet.

Busygoingblah · 18/01/2021 00:38

I think it’s partly logistics. They are in the building where the vaccines are being given, it’s easy to fit them in. This cuts down costs.

It also helps protect other, clinical, nhs staff if more people in the building are vaccinated.

They are also likely to share some spaces with clinical staff - the microwave in the staff room, the printer and photocopier, staff toilets, storerooms etc where they are more likely to pick illness up.

Also Admin and other back office staff are vital to keeping vital nhs services running. There is a lot of extra processes and paperwork right now that needs to be done. We need admin staff to be at work and not at home self isolating.

They are also facing the same discrimination that other nhs staff are facing from friends and family right now. When you’re isolated anyway and stressed from the horrible nhs working environments right it’s very tricky to hear ‘I can’t meet you for a walk because you work in a hospital/ surgery/ clinic’

In some counties Special school teachers and TAs are now being prioritised for the vaccine. Friends who work in special schools have been told they will be vaccinated by the end of February.

TidyOmlette · 18/01/2021 00:44

Regardless of their essential role they aren’t patient facing so they should have never received it so quickly.

There’s so many others out there that should have got it first including the ambulance call centres and nhs24 call centres. They aren’t patient facing either but if there’s a mass break out in one of their centres then the public would certainly feel it! It would be an utter disaster and most likely put a lot of patient’s at risk and possibly loss of life

m0therofdragons · 18/01/2021 07:48

I also need to point out, all wfh nhs staff are currently on standby to be redeployed and could be hcas on icu or covid wards. It really is that bad in some hospitals.

Lemons1571 · 18/01/2021 07:49

People-facing roles should get priority somewhere. The odd thing about education is that the DfE discouraged masks and PPE in classrooms, putting them at greater risk than police etc. It still makes no sense to me even now.

bluebluezoo · 18/01/2021 08:02

One question. Anyone her an epidemiologist, virologist or otherwise trained in related sciences?

There will be a reason these protocols are designed and the vaccine is being distributed the way it is. Designed by leading experts in the field.

It is being distributed according to the models which means those most likely to either become seriously ill from covid, or those most likely to pass it to that group, will get it first.

Teachers are not in that group. Yes they may be at greater risk of exposure, but teachers and kids are not the demographic where a significant % will land in ITU.

Everyone has an opinion on how the vaccine should be given. But unless you actually have in depth knowledge of transmission patterns and how vaccines most effectively stop a pandemic, in which case you’ll likely be the one advising the govt that all nhs workers get it first, then your opinion really doesn’t count for much.

Teachers, Police etc are not getting the vaccine not because no one cares about their health, but because they aren’t the ones which will overwhelm the NHS.

Skipsurvey · 18/01/2021 08:06

who do you think orders the PPE, keeps the rota? deals with endless paper work, calls patients/GPs?

Skipsurvey · 18/01/2021 08:10

as said already, once vaccinated we may well be deployed, they are desperate for staff.

BLACKTUESDAY1 · 18/01/2021 08:11

NHS admin are surrounded by the potential to contract COVID. All staff share carparks, staff areas, touch doors etc and handle patient notes that have been all over the hospital (even on COVID wards). Most have been walking into a building since March last year KNOWING there are many, many COVID positive patients inside. A lot have offices on or near wards where COVID is confirmed and have daily contact with clinical staff who are hoving direct contact with positive patiens. They should def get the vaccine!!

RichardMarxisinnocent · 18/01/2021 08:14

@EloraaDanan

FWIW in my Trust it’s red and amber areas first with CEV staff, then any staff in green areas, then staff WFH. They’ve got through the list very very quickly and are now onto green staff.
Same with mine.
Plussizejumpsuit · 18/01/2021 08:16

Sorry just really need to say that all office based staff in the NHS are not admin staff.

Nothing wrong with working in admin, but it's a fairly massive generalisation of jobs. Is everyone else in the world working in an office admin? No.

Also if you don't actually understand what the staff are doing the you like can't understand why they may warrant a vaccine. For example having lots of contact with senior doctors or medical staff who manage Wards.

MakeWorkYourNewFavourite · 18/01/2021 08:17

Go from clapping them and banging spoons on fucking saucepans for them to begrudging them a vaccine. Jesus.
Fucking teachers. You'd think they were working in submarines the way they go on about it. Let's start clapping for them on Mondays! They'd like that.

LeSquigh · 18/01/2021 08:20

I am a 999 operator, I do not come into contact with the general public, however we are being called for vaccinations, a large proportion of my colleagues have already been done. Because without us there would be a big problem. Same as NHS admin staff, may of which do come into contact with more cases than the average, certainly more than I do.

RoseFence · 18/01/2021 08:20

Isn't it obvious? You need back office staff to keep the machine going.

What if those NHS IT or HR guys fall ill? The system functions as a whole, take out the back office and everything comes to a halt.

Vaccine envy, key worker school place envy, curtain twitching... Covid really doe bring out the worst in some people.

CountessFrog · 18/01/2021 08:27

Yes but since March last year I’ve seen countless threads where various groups see themselves as ‘no different from the NHS’ in the degree of PPE required.

So it’s unsurprising that those same groups think they should have the vaccine now ahead of people working in hospitals. It shows a basic lack of understanding of what NHS staff actually do, and as somebody has already pointed out, most people here are neither virologists nor epidemiologists.

There is also a worrying lack of basic understanding of the difference between potential threat, perceived threat and actual threat.

So, the NHS staff working on covid wards and ITU are dealing with actual threat. Known infection. Repeated exposure to viral load. They are putting tubes into peoples throats and noses and engaging in risky aerosol generating procedures, which increases their threat.

Those working on hospitals are subject to increased potential threat because hospitals are a known source of infection.

Those working for the NHS generally are on standby, even the ones working from home or in offices are subject to potential increased threat if they are redeployed to covid wards.

It’s useful to get some perspective and contrast this with other professions. People working in supermarkets, for example. They have a potentially higher risk than somebody working from home, however nobody is going to call them up to work on a covid ward with actual known threat.

Teachers have the potential threat from their students. Their threat is made worse by not wearing masks, so they should wear masks if they believe they work, however the flimsy clinical masks don’t seem terribly effective, so perhaps they should wear FFP3 masks - only these aren’t even worn on hospital wards, where the threat is higher.

The students are a potential threat, not an actual threat.

It’s a shame people dont understand how the NHS operates, or how close it always lies to collapse.

Motorina · 18/01/2021 08:29

Four points:

  1. I'm sure you could, if you looked around, find some admin staff who rightfully should be a lower priority than some high-priority (special school?) teaching staff. Ranking everyone and working out which was who would take very significant time and effort, which would reduce admin support for the wider vaccine effort. Probably counter-productive.
  1. Vaccinating NHS workers isn't primarily to protect those workers. It's to protect their ability to provide clinical care. If our admin team collapses due to sickness our service collapses. Patients are left in intractable pain. Some die. That's just my relatively small bit of the NHS. If a GP's admin team collapses, the practice collapses. No healthcare for their patients. No vaccine service. If a school's admin team collapses the school closes. Kids are sent home. Bad, yes, but a different level of bad than clinical services closing.

This is why teachers were able to send section 44 letters and withdraw services and nurses couldn't, although they also are working in an unsafe environment. If enough NHS staff go off sick patients go untreated and we get a mass casualty event. If schools close, people are inconvenienced and kids learning is disrupted. It's not the same.

  1. We don't have the evidence to prove the vaccine prevents transmission, but the likelyhood is it at the least reduces it. NHS staff work with the most vulnerable to the effects of covid. If we can prevent a receptionist getting covid and giving it to patients attending a clinic, we save lives. Transmission in schools does have a knock on disease levels in the wider community (why they're now partially shut) but kids themselves are not vulnerable to covid. Even, for the most part, kids in special schools.
  1. In wave one, we had admin staff redeployed to proning teams. I don't know of any cases where that's happened this time around in my hospital, but I would be astonished if it hasn't happened somewhere. I don't know of a single teacher redeployed to help prone patients. If they were, they would then be entitled to get the vaccine.
Throwaway99 · 18/01/2021 08:33

Who do you think books the scans, the MRIs, and all the other procedures that require appointments from GP referrals?

Admin staff, that's who.

fizzyp0p · 18/01/2021 08:34

@MrsFezziwig

Thanks I was just curious because when I was a Porter I worked for a company not the NHS itself just wondered if it was all the same. Thanks Smile

frustrationcentral · 18/01/2021 08:41

I find this a little confusing too, I can understand the importance of the non clinical jobs in the NHS but I thought the point of the vaccine was to prevent illness in those most likely to get the virus and end up in hospital, rather than protecting those in most important jobs.

I imagine it's just easier for everyone in the sector to get vaccinated at the same time, which if that means be get on with it, with minimal confusion over who's had it/who hasn't, then crack on

frustrationcentral · 18/01/2021 08:42

@Motorina

Four points:
  1. I'm sure you could, if you looked around, find some admin staff who rightfully should be a lower priority than some high-priority (special school?) teaching staff. Ranking everyone and working out which was who would take very significant time and effort, which would reduce admin support for the wider vaccine effort. Probably counter-productive.
  1. Vaccinating NHS workers isn't primarily to protect those workers. It's to protect their ability to provide clinical care. If our admin team collapses due to sickness our service collapses. Patients are left in intractable pain. Some die. That's just my relatively small bit of the NHS. If a GP's admin team collapses, the practice collapses. No healthcare for their patients. No vaccine service. If a school's admin team collapses the school closes. Kids are sent home. Bad, yes, but a different level of bad than clinical services closing.

This is why teachers were able to send section 44 letters and withdraw services and nurses couldn't, although they also are working in an unsafe environment. If enough NHS staff go off sick patients go untreated and we get a mass casualty event. If schools close, people are inconvenienced and kids learning is disrupted. It's not the same.

  1. We don't have the evidence to prove the vaccine prevents transmission, but the likelyhood is it at the least reduces it. NHS staff work with the most vulnerable to the effects of covid. If we can prevent a receptionist getting covid and giving it to patients attending a clinic, we save lives. Transmission in schools does have a knock on disease levels in the wider community (why they're now partially shut) but kids themselves are not vulnerable to covid. Even, for the most part, kids in special schools.
  1. In wave one, we had admin staff redeployed to proning teams. I don't know of any cases where that's happened this time around in my hospital, but I would be astonished if it hasn't happened somewhere. I don't know of a single teacher redeployed to help prone patients. If they were, they would then be entitled to get the vaccine.
Hmm very valid points, thanks for that

Maybe ignore my stupid post BlushGrin

xHeartinacagex · 18/01/2021 08:42

I'm a nurse and I think some of our admin staff have had it. I believe it's because of the risk to the service if too many were to go off sick, not because of their contact with patients. The amount of administration in the NHS is nuts and we would grind to a halt pretty quick without them.

I agree teachers should get it soon though.

TheGreatWave · 18/01/2021 08:53

You need a blunt tool when trying to achieve mass rollout, anything else would add too much complication.

Disfordarkchocolate · 18/01/2021 08:53

I have worked in a few NHS admin roles. Contact with clinical staff and going to wards and out patients departments was common.

Also, if admin staff don't work then bills don't get paid, notes aren't upto date, orders don't get submitted etc.