To burst all of these bloody bubbles

[kirktonhouse]

A single person can bubble with one single other household, yes, I get it, it's really useful for those living alone, however there are so many other bloody fake bubbles.

Single elderly parents having 'bubbles' with every one of their children's families

Work bubbles

School bubbles (different in the morning and the afternoon)

Sport bubbles (stupid fucking footballers)

Camping bubbles (yes really, some friends in the summer)

Play bubbles (with whoever happens to be at the park/beach)

Dog walk bubbles

You can't call everyday life a fucking bubble. Just stop seeing so many bloody people and calling it a bubble to pretend that it's ok when it really, really isn't.

I feel better for that. I'm going back to my miserable bastard bubble, does anyone want to join me?

@DumplingsAndStew

This isn't quite true. Your childcare bubble, for example, can different to your support bubble if it isn't practical for them to be the same.

See, I don't understand this. Bubbles are for essential reasons. If you need someone to provide childcare, and also need someone to provide emotional support to you, make them the same person.

Well sometimes the person in the support bubble isn't in a position to be a child carer.

Take this example I know of:

Family with 6y child. Parents are not key workers but both have to work. One can work from home part time but has to go in 1 day a week. Other has to work in the work place full time. Child has a part time school place due to their needs but they can't choose the days and unfortunately it doesn't match with the work from home days.

They have a childcare bubble with one set of grandparents. Child is collected from doorstep in a morning one day a week. Child is then taken to grandparents, sometimes stays over one night, then either dropped off at school the next day or returned to family house at doorstep.

However the other grandparent was widowed recently, during lockdown first time. Unfortunately this grandparent isn't well enough to be the childcare support bubble. Family has this grandparent within their support bubble so that they are not isolated permanently. One adult in the family seems that person weekly, sometimes more. The other adult and the child see them occasionally (once or twice a month max) but keeps their distance.

None of the three households are in other bubbles.
Child has contact with other households at school but nowhere else.
One parent has no contact with others as even when in work they have an office of their own and the rota means they don't need to see anyone else when in,
Other parent has some limited contact at work but not close or prolonged contact, due to nature of work and own office.
Grandparents doing childcare have no other contacts though do go for a walk daily and sometimes go food shopping, for appointments, etc.
The single grandparent rarely leaves their home due to health issues.

@DumplingsAndStew

This isn't quite true. Your childcare bubble, for example, can different to your support bubble if it isn't practical for them to be the same.

See, I don't understand this. Bubbles are for essential reasons. If you need someone to provide childcare, and also need someone to provide emotional support to you, make them the same person.

You're making the assumption that the parent needing childcare is the one who also needs the support/single person bubble. Often this is not the case. Often the parent is the one who is providing the support for another single person.

(Meant to respond to @PinkTonic in my post above).

@WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

What if you're providing the support bubble to one person, and also need a childcare bubble? They can't be the same in that case.

Either you get childcare from the person that you are providing support to, or the person you are supporting should seek support elsewhere if that's not possible.

This indiscriminate number of 'bubbles' has to stop somewhere.

@Abraxan

You're making the assumption that the parent needing childcare is the one who also needs the support/single person bubble. Often this is not the case. Often the parent is the one who is providing the support for another single person.

Yes, you're right. For whatever reason I was assuming that, and that's given me something to think about, thanks.
I think for most people, this wouldn't be as issue, but I will acknowledge that for a small minority its not something I had considered.

Sometimes I feel the government should just wash their hands off it all and let us and the virus run riot (herd immunity).

Those who care, will still take utmost care and the others can do what they like which they do anyway.

I feel I am being punished by being restricted from getting out into fresh air beyond walking distance of local pavements whilst the others can drive around to enjoy their bubbles near and far.

@DumplingsAndStew

Abraxan and I said the same thing (different wording yet the same idea in principle) yet you told me I'm wrong and agreed with them

@JinglingHellsBells

I agree OP.

IMO the only bubbles should be 1:1 for 2 single people, of any age but especially the elderly who are housebound.

IME I know of an elderly person who bubbles with her family (son, wife, 2 older teen kids) and both the kids and the DIL have jobs where they are in contact with lots of people.

But in any case, it would be better if the bubble was just the old person and her son.

My mum, who lives alone and has mental health struggles, doesn’t know another single adult to bubble with. Where do you suggest she finds one? She is bubbles with us. Yes I have children at school so that is additional risk to her, but the risk is less than that of her suffering severe mental health decline being on her own for months on end. She was at rock bottom before bubbles were introduced. On the occasions we have had to test someone in the household due to symptoms, she has isolated until we had a negative result. When she had a test for a high temperature, our entire household isolated until her negative result. She actually had Covid, back in lockdown 1 when we hadn’t seen her for 6 weeks.

[quote WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo]@DumplingsAndStew

Abraxan and I said the same thing (different wording yet the same idea in principle) yet you told me I'm wrong and agreed with them [/quote]
Sorry if it seemed that way. When I read your comment, I read it as having those two separate bubbles by choice, rather than necessity. It was the comment by Abraxan prior to the one I quoted, that showed me a scenario that explained why this might come about.
I've read of more people who have separate bubbles by choice to maximise the people involved, so hadn't really thought of it from a different perspective.

@AmoElCafe

On the occasions we have had to test someone in the household due to symptoms, she has isolated until we had a negative result. When she had a test for a high temperature, our entire household isolated until her negative result.

This is a very important point, and one i feel was better conveyed by the Scottish Government terming of "extended household". I believe many people are not treating 'bubbles' as one group in cases of self isolation.

@DumplingsAndStew fair enough. Some people will have those bubbles out of choice. That's allowed. For me its a hypothetical situation. DC are too old for a childcare bubble, and my Mum is my support bubble as I'm a single parent. Although ds2 is probably going to stay there for a few days before I have a breakdown.

I totally agree. People are completely abusing the bubbles as a way of justifying breaking rules that the rest of us have to follow. If you are someone living alone then fair enough you should be able to join up with others but thats it.

[quote WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo]@DumplingsAndStew fair enough. Some people will have those bubbles out of choice. That's allowed. For me its a hypothetical situation. DC are too old for a childcare bubble, and my Mum is my support bubble as I'm a single parent. Although ds2 is probably going to stay there for a few days before I have a breakdown.[/quote]
The break will probably do both of you good, humans are social beings, but we're not made to spend all this time under one roof. Am sure your mum will enjoy the company too.
Hope it helps

Long and I can't do PG on my phone so apologies in advance! I'm internally struggling with this MASSIVELY. My partner and I don't live together, both single parents. He got COVID back in May which has left him extremely profoundly disabled. We didn't see each other in lockdown 1, so very rule abiding, but he absolutely cannot cope on his own at the moment as he is virtually bedbound. Also on the days he has his kids they need a functioning adult at least some of the time to cook/clean/do schoolwork. So that's a bubble of me, him, my kids, his kids. There isn't anyone else as his family live in another country. We've looked at carers but can't make it work as he'd need too many different types to meet his needs (say, housekeeper several times per week, agency for some personal care, and a childminder for kids (all of whom may have their own bubbles!)) and is more than we can afford anyway. Also as you can imagine his MH is extremely fragile from becoming suddenly disabled from being fighting fit too so at least he has some comfort from seeing me. So me caring makes more sense. Except I work and need childcare. DP obviously can't do it. So my parents are a childcare bubble. We have agreed to get shopping delivered, they have handed over care for my grandfather to another family member and are taking it all very seriously, not seeing anyone else. OK, not ideal to have more than one bubble but what can I do? We've taken as many precautions as possible as I can't risk DP getting reinfected. Except then add in that both sets of DC go to both other parents, who are also single parents with their own bubbles (and one of which is very lax from what I've heard), both in keyworker professions and are seeing other people in work (and I don't mean one office of people, multiple multiple people - think care workers) and have DC with other people who they are not in a relationship with, so those '2nd family' DC ALSO see their other parents, who probably have single parent bubbles and childcare bubbles etc. My x2 bubbles are NOT bubbles at all. It's fucking foam party. I feel sick about it. And it proved a point when practically the whole damned lot of us came down with it from one person who had no connection to some in the 'chain'. Come an denigrate me, because I feel like part of the problem, but I have no solution and it's tearing me up. I've also just had surgery so I'm barely ticking over as it is.

@Aquagirl19

I totally agree. People are completely abusing the bubbles as a way of justifying breaking rules that the rest of us have to follow. If you are someone living alone then fair enough you should be able to join up with others but thats it.

So someone living alone and who is doing fine is more deserving of being able to form a bubble than a couple with a severely disabled child / children who are providing 24/7 care? There’s a reason the categories were extended - would love for the people advocating this to be a fly on the wall in my house and those of other parents of children with significant disabilities. I don’t know why people can’t understand that others are experiencing awful shit that they don’t understand. I don’t know what it’s like to live alone through this and I wouldn’t dream of saying that those who do shouldn’t be entitled - why are people so quick to dismiss the needs of others?

There are doubtless so many taking the piss because they can justify it, but many more who cannot manage without the support of others at the moment.

My MIL has her 90+ year old father in her bubble and he comes to stay part of the week and weekend, but also has my SIL and her kids in a childcare bubble. She think because they aren't there at the same time it's fine. I just hope it's not a risk to the grandparent in law. MIL has not seen our kids despite being just as local.

Support bubbles are absolutely vital. This situation is bad enough without us losing our humanity and our empathy.

There needs to be an information campaign though about the exclusivity of bubbles and when and why these might be needed. Too many people either think that they are entitled to a bubble, are genuinely confused by the rules or are wilfully misunderstanding and bending the rules. We need a campaign that asks people to think about the bubble-chain (do you know who else the person/people in your bubble have interacted with?)

I know a family in a very difficult situation. They have a DC with severe learning and physical disabilities and lives in an assisted living facility. The parent have bubbled with him to ensure that they can visit and be involved in his care; also for his wellbeing as he lights up when they visit and to withhold this from him would be unspeakably cruel. These parents, however, also have another DC who lives alone around 20 miles away. She suffers from mental health issues and has a history of self-harm. The pandemic has affected her MH even more so the parents have also bubbled with her for support and visit her regularly, often staying over. This is against the rules but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who isn't sympathetic to their situation. Creating one bubble only would be a literal Sophie's Choice.

Where it gets complicated however is the fact that this couple have also bubbled with the wife's elderly and widowed mother. And the elderly mother has also bubbled with her other two daughters. And one of these daughters has an adult DC at home who has bubbled with a friend to save his sanity rather than being stuck with his parents all the time. And the another daughter has a childcare bubble with both her DC and two sets of grandkids. Now consider that the adult DC with mental health issues also works frontline NHS so is coming into contact with lots of people, including those infected. The physically disabled DC has different carers going in and out. One of the other sisters works in a care home and the adult son who needs his sanity saved is also working outside the home coming into contact with colleagues and customers - and his friend may well have another bubble too. And until recently the grandkids were mixing at school - and their parents might have another bubble... There is such huge potential for transmission within this family/friend/colleagues group but each branch of the bubble on its own seems quite reasonable. Really though, the elderly mother should only be bubbling with one of her daughters. If it is the one with DC at home, then the DC shouldn't bubble elsewhere and if it is the one with grandchildren, they should be used for childcare. These are some bloody hard decisions though with someone standing to lose out, and it still doesn't provide a solution to the parents with two disabled DC.

Work bubbles also can't be helped in many cases but again the risks should be made clear. My DH works in an essential job out of the home. There are 5 people in his department who have to work together closely but don't come into contact with any other department. One colleague was recently given a formal warning for boasting that he "bubbled" with a friend to watch a football match at the friend's house. Neither are single people living alone and he was told quite sternly that he had now put the other 4 colleagues and their families/genuine support bubbles at risk. His excuse was that his mate has sky sports so it was the only way he could see the game. Another colleague seemed to think it was fine for him and his wife to socialise with DH and me because we're all in an extended bubble. DH and I put our foot down though - an unavoidable work bubble is one thing but there's no need to have more contact than necessary, nor for me to have direct contact with the other DW. A friend who is a teacher has told me though that her work colleagues socialise regularly in each others houses because they are at school together all day anyway so already a bubble. It makes me feel very uneasy.

I have long been concerned that support and childcare bubbles, even when done according to the rules and not stretching them, are often bringing together older, vulnerable people with children who we know can transmit covid very will even if they themselves don't often get v ill from it.

E.g. single parent who shares custody of children with the ex. Single parent bubbles with their parents for support / childcare (whether for work or a break overnight). Parents may still be working (more exposure) but can have the kids if in childcare bubble and can socialise as normal with single parent if in support bubble. Or the parents may be older and therefore age vulnerable to Covid but can still mix with / care for the kids. Kids may be spending time with the other parent too where there may be half or step siblings who attend a different school etc.

All that could also apply to a couple raising kids who bubble with one of their parents who lives alone and who may be older and age vulnerable to Covid.

Even before schools closed, I was surprised at how many older grandparents were doing the school run and wraparound childcare. Right now when infection rates are sky high, older grandparents are still bubbling and doing childcare for children attending hub school and / or other childcare settings.

It all feels too much especially in this lockdown. Keep support bubbles but allow a single person to bubble only with another single person. Ideally only with someone of a similar age / risk profile. This would be much lower risk.

Of course, whatever is allowed enough people will ignore / take the piss. I'm starting to feel like if you follow the rules you just get penalised in the long run as the rules just get tighter. Every time they get stricter there must be more and more people who decide to give up following them and those who continue to observe them just get a smaller and more restricted life. Has the freeloader concept ever been more relevant than now?!

FWIW I have no bubble of use. Could in theory bubble with my elderly parent who lives alone but haven't as they are at added risk due to age and health factors. I have school age kids. Since school closed it feels ironically safer than ever to properly bubble with them. The bubble would be support to them rather than them to us obviously.

It all feels too much especially in this lockdown. Keep support bubbles but allow a single person to bubble only with another single person. Ideally only with someone of a similar age / risk profile. This would be much lower risk

My mother lives alone. She doesn’t know any other single person she can bubble with. She only has us.
We are of course a risk to her as my children are (usually) at school. She so far is the only one of us to catch Covid, and that was in lockdown #1 when we hadn’t seen her for 6 weeks, so she didn’t catch it from us (she had only been to a routine medical appointment).
The risk of her being alone is far greater than the risk of Covid, as she was suicidal before support bubbles were introduced.

Abraxan

For example, it allows couples who live separately and alone to spend time together. Because to force couple to have no close social contact for months on end isn't practical.

A couple who live together can't bubble with just anyone though, only with someone who lives alone. So it's of very limited use. Not all couples will have someone they can bubble with within the rules and so will be stuck.

Given how much closer vaccine protection is for older and vulnerable people I don't understand why so many are taking support bubble risks with loved ones in these groups even if they have until now.

Keep support bubbles but allow a single person to bubble only with another single person. Ideally only with someone of a similar age / risk profile. This would be much lower risk.

Yet again disabled people and carers forgotten about. What a shock.

A couple who live together can't bubble with just anyone though, only with someone who lives alone. So it's of very limited use. Not all couples will have someone they can bubble with within the rules and so will be stuck.

Will people actually read the rules before saying stuff like this which is untrue? No wonder there’s so much confusion.

You can form a support bubble with a household of any size if one of the following apply.

I wish I could have a proper bubble with my parents, they don’t see anyone else and neither do we.
They are our childcare bubble as my husband was diagnosed with cancer late last year and we need all the support we can get, they are the only family we have near us.

Well said @kirktonhouse

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@AmoElCafe

On the occasions we have had to test someone in the household due to symptoms, she has isolated until we had a negative result. When she had a test for a high temperature, our entire household isolated until her negative result.

This is a very important point, and one i feel was better conveyed by the Scottish Government terming of "extended household". I believe many people are not treating 'bubbles' as one group in cases of self isolation.[/quote]
Yes, I agree with this and when I realised the implications of having an extra person(s) in our household who WOH in a critical role, it actually put us off bubbling with them, as it wouldn't have been good if they'd had to isolate and not be able to go to work if any of us tested +.