Why does the US seem to be carrying on almost as normal?

[ArtemisBean]

Given that their death rates are even higher than ours per 100,000 people, how is it that they seem to have largely avoided lockdowns, closures, restrictions on meeting others in so many areas? Is it that their hospitals are better equipped than ours so there's no bed crisis? Are they in denial? Or is the media just painting a rosier picture than the reality? Genuinely trying to understand and fully accept that I've been living under a rock as regards how overseas have been handling Covid!

I think aside from the problem of healthcare being so expensive in the US, they have also basically had a President who has refused to take covid seriously, at one point he even suggested some form of ingesting bleach as a 'cure', the man has done a huge, dangerous disservice to the people of the US and should be in prison for his wilful disregard towards them.

So interesting! Is there a lot of local community care in the States? Voluntary groups who would drive old folk to the hospital for instance?

California has been off school since March pretty much. My friend is an early years teacher in San Diego, she teaches exclusively online. Right back in March, her district drove round and gave all children a device to work on. There's the difference!

you would think that overall the USA would have lower deaths per 100000 because of population density overall .

But I remember in the first wave comparing New York and London

not far off the same population and population density and their deaths at one point were 10 x more than ours .

Interesting about costs /tests etc I did wonder how people were coping who have no insurance ?

My daughter in law in Philly has lost both grandparents to covid and still believes it’s a conspiracy. Her and my son are carrying on as if there is no covid. It troubles me deeply but not my place to say anything.

They are mostly allowed to do anything even theme parks but they are dying in huge numbers & their current president DT doesn't give a s*.

@amatsip
do you mean a conspiracy in that people are infected deliberately ?
Or they did not actually die of covid ?
I don't understand .

Because trump is as good as a covid denier and he’s in charge
I suspect Biden will take more control and encourage the states approaches to become harsher

@Bagelsandbrie if you are interested in culture of counties, you might like playing with the hofsted scale: www.hofstede-insights.com/product/compare-countries/
Comparing counties attitudes to individualism vs collectivism is quite interesting in the lens of COVID

They're not, most schools have been closed since spring and they don't have keyworker provision. Depends on state though

Right back in March, her district drove round and gave all children a device to work on. There's the difference!

You have to remember how hugely polarized school districts can be in the USA. This is not a universal approach.

Great post motorina It really is hard to grasp just how mistrusting the American public are. Also their understandable political exhaustion. They've had a rough few years.

@Stretchandsnap yes, its fascinating! We actually had a half day course on that in my old work long ago. I find it really interesting although I think some of the terminology is a bit old fashioned ("masculinity" is misleading I think although when you know what it means by that it makes sense). I think Covid has really highlighted different countries cultural attitudes, and its not just the individualism that makes a difference - the "masculinity(or tough v tender)"; attitudes towards uncertainty etc have all contributed I think

My best friend is in LA and there's a difference in priorities. Her two kids have been off school since early March. I know lots of people on MN seem to think this is a good thing, but I think it's a tragedy. They both 'started' new schools in the Autumn and have never even visited them. I am so glad my children had that term of normality, it was like night and day in terms of their mental wellbeing.

Yet her eldest works in a non-essential shop and that's been open throughout. There also seems to be a difference in attitude to household mixing.

I don't doubt that opening schools will have contributed to a rise in cases, obviously not a good thing. However, I think it's absolutely right that opening/keeping them open should be a priority.

It sheds a light on our leadership here in the UK. With a few small alterations, Covid policy has been science-led on the whole. Add that to an NHS which is centralised and under government control, and you get an infection and death rate that is comparable to similar countries across Europe.

The States had/have neither of those things, and the death rates are utterly bizarre for a 1st world country.

@PatienceVirtue yes - sometimes it is about competing freedoms - the right of shops to be open v the right of children to be in school v the right of others to be able to go food shopping without risking ill health. It is similar to the debate around cars. Sorry to keep banging on about the Netherlands but there was a lot of debate in the 1970s as road traffic accidents increased about the right of children (and others) to play on streets/walk or cycle to school V the rights of cars. The Netherlands came down, predictibly, on the side of bikes and children. In the UK and US (where I am not sure there was even a debate) it was the freedom of cars and drivers that won out. But that severly restricted children's freedoms as a result.

@apalledandshocked completely agree! Also think indulgence is an interesting scale - the US (and Uk) is really quite indulgent, perhaps why lockdown is so hard in terms of individual compliance

In some states you can travel a couple of hundred miles and not see another car. Lots of people will be able to carry on as normal and are probably unaffected by the pandemic.

In other built-up areas (LA, New York, San Francisco etc) if people are carrying on as normal then they are either stupid or have a death wish.

I have ties to Miami and Austin, people I know in Austin are at best pretending to social distance, Miami is another beast and they don’t give a fuck about the virus.

Yes very good point @appalledandshocked about competing freedoms. It's very hard to say it out loud because it sounds like I'm saying more deaths are a price worth paying for school openings. I feel that the whole debate around schools became around whether they did or did not increase infections. I felt that of course they did increase infections but the debate should have been what is the level to which this is an acceptable price to pay for children's sanity and education.

And don't apologise re. talking about the Netherlands! It's fascinating - I always felt it was a utopia but you're giving a more nuanced picture. Blimming wish we'd came down in favour of bikes in the 70s though.

[quote Stretchandsnap]@apalledandshocked completely agree! Also think indulgence is an interesting scale - the US (and Uk) is really quite indulgent, perhaps why lockdown is so hard in terms of individual compliance[/quote]
Absoultely. Where the UK and US really differ though is long term orientation. That is really interesting. Ahhh, I could play with it all day but I need to do work!

Part of it is far less support for those unable to work.

Beyond that and just like here there being differences in how much people follow the rules, the states rules vary a lot - some have had lockdown with no schools and push to work from home pretty much since last March while others had very limited closures at all. I know people who've gone nowhere for months, and others who MN would have a field day with discussing how they "just had" to take a weekend trip in a city a state away and then drove 10 hours to visit family over Christmas.

They are not all government hating rednecks in America

Rednecks in many areas has long been associated with union men and union families, with connections to strikes and pushes for collective action going back over 100 years in mining, farming, and other mostly physical labour. While some fit the image you're trying to convey (but then, many people of all types hate the US government and politicians in general), the negative concept of rednecks largely constructed over decades as narrowminded people hating and complaining for no good reason and really out for themselves is by people who have been against unions and collective action, not the individualistic ideal given by those in power in the US of all political types.

@PatienceVirtue For me personally, I would wear a mask in my sleep and not go clothes shopping for 2 years if it meant that the schools could open sooner. But as a parent I would say that - people without young children might feel differently.
I do really like the Netherlands on the whole. It is a very positive place to bring up children (particularly where I live) and there are loads of things I love about it but it definately isn't a utopia. For example, racisim is definately an issue here although I dont know if the Dutch are more racist that the British or just more direct about it (no filters). I think the 70s were a bit of a turning point when it comes to road safety, and it does annoy me when people say "ah yes, in the 60s/70s we ran around all day outside, none of this sitting indoors being ferried around in cars. Kids today blah blah blah" Its like yes, because back then there was much less traffic on the roads so it was safer to do so!

@BiBabbles I think the conflation of rednecks (or "chavs" in the UK) with racism/right wing attitudes is interesting. I am sure some working class people are racist - but if the only racist/right wing people in America (and the UK) were "red-necks" then most of the problems of insitutional racism, for example, would not exist. I think they are a very convenient scape-goat and its wrong.

@Calmandmeasured1

In some states you can travel a couple of hundred miles and not see another car. Lots of people will be able to carry on as normal and are probably unaffected by the pandemic.

In other built-up areas (LA, New York, San Francisco etc) if people are carrying on as normal then they are either stupid or have a death wish.

But, North Dakota is probably one of those states, it is has a ridiculously low population density. People probably did think that would make them safe. But the death rates there have been of the charts. 1 in 800 people alive at the start of 2020 died from Covid there.