Why does the US seem to be carrying on almost as normal?

[ArtemisBean]

Given that their death rates are even higher than ours per 100,000 people, how is it that they seem to have largely avoided lockdowns, closures, restrictions on meeting others in so many areas? Is it that their hospitals are better equipped than ours so there's no bed crisis? Are they in denial? Or is the media just painting a rosier picture than the reality? Genuinely trying to understand and fully accept that I've been living under a rock as regards how overseas have been handling Covid!

I can't believe the sweeping ignorance about the situation in the US

Many many schools have been shut since march (and delivering full online school since not long after)!

A quick Google shows UK density is 272per Km2. Connecticut is 286 so similar ish. Their R rate 1.12. They get about 2.5k new cases a day.

I thought the same, OP. A friend of mine in Florida has been posting photos of her family eating in restaurants, at a water park, in a bar, etc. - no masks, no social distancing, even hugs! I don't understand it.

I think our tv news is very limited at the moment. They aren't really covering what's happening with Covid and restrictions in other countries around the world.

@Cuddling57

I think our tv news is very limited at the moment. They aren't really covering what's happening with Covid and restrictions in other countries around the world.

That's why reading beyond the TV headlines is so important if you want to be informed

Varies by state I think. It's stricter in California, schools have been completely shut there since March.

"Given that their death rates are even higher than ours per 100,000 people, how is it that they seem to have largely avoided lockdowns, closures, restrictions on meeting others in so many areas"

Surely the last part of that statement helped cause the first?
But as others have said, its very decentralised so different states have had very different attitudes. Actually considering how much more spread apart people are in rural parts of AMerica than the UK (obviously cities like NY are completely different) it should have been much easier to slow the virus down in those areas/control the spread. The fact that it has rampaged through some of the more rural (red) states and caused such a high death toll in those areas is to a large part because of the lack of measures.
Which doesnt mean I am criticising everyone there for not wanting to lockdown - there is much less of a welfare state so for lots of people closing restaurants etc could mean they lose their jobs, their house, their medical insurance very quickly (I know it is also a worry for people in the UK)

Well thinking about how the virus here is having the most serious impact on deprived and BAME communities, it isn't a big stretch to think there's a lot of under recording happening as people will not be seeking medical care and therfore not dying in hospital.

You don't have to look far at all to get information about the lack of health care for those groups in the USA. I think it's very likely therfore these people aren't getting the medical attention they need when Ill. Even insurance requires Co payment. People often don't have that money. Especially if they have been hit by closures in their industry.

Especially as covid often starts mild before becoming serious in some people. I can see a situation where low or no income people just don't seek help and die at home. Or are still struggling with long covid at home with no testing.

So I think the death rate is worse than its showing. Which is a direct result of not being as closed down as some countries.

It varies by region. They do have a beds crisis. In LA they’re not taking some heart attack patients to hospital. I suppose they’ve never really valued public health and everyone getting a chance for medical treatment like we do here, but it’s still news over there. We just don’t seem to hear about it.

I heard on radio last night that around 50% of healthcare workers in US, and in Netherlands?, are refusing to take the vaccine. So I imagine a fair amount of denial??

Going out on a limb I think some of it is because there’s still this whole attitude that peoples ill health happens to them because of bad choices or bad genes. This is reflected in the healthcare system which penalises people for having long term health conditions and reinforces this rule.

My Mum (from Georgia, US) had multiple health issues and moved to the UK as a child. Most of her / my family still live in Georgia. My Uncle lives in Colorado and has heart issues and bowel cancer - he’s had people openly telling him he’s a drain on the system. And others very shocked when he tells them he has those issues because he’s visibly slim and healthy looking at 78 - they associate bad health with being obese or making “bad choices” as they trot out a lot.

My ex - who is from the UK and married an US woman 10 years ago- is another one of these judgy people. He lives near Seattle as I said upthread and I have multiple chronic health issues and he seems to think nothing like that will ever happen to him. I hope it doesn’t - we are on good terms, been apart nearly 17 years, same age as our dd- but he seems to think because he keeps fit and does a lot of active stuff he will live to 100. He doesn’t realise he’s lucky he is ABLE to keep fit. For many people it’s not a choice!

(I have lupus, asthma and many other debilitating autoimmune conditions).

I do think these (dare I say it, republican) views are fuelling the rise in Covid and breaking of rules.

Meant to add my exes wife and family has these same views.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

A quick Google shows UK density is 272per Km2. Connecticut is 286 so similar ish. Their R rate 1.12. They get about 2.5k new cases a day.

North Dakota on the other hand has a population density of just 10.5 per square KM. They have had 96,480 cases in the last 7 days (so 13.7k new cases a day) and apparently the highest mortality rate in the world (although it is possible other parts of the world managed to hide their mortality rates better). Even so an estimated 1/800 residents of the State have died from Covid. Their current policy is "reopening the State".

My sister lives in the U.S. Things such as wearing face coverings vary from state to state, and have become a political issue. Those treating it seriously and prepared to take personal actions such as face coverings are on the whole Democrats, others Republicans.

@Bagelsandbrie Good old Calvinism. You see it to an extent in the Netherlands and the Dutch attitude to healthcare generally, although the two societies are radically different in lots of ways and it hasnt informed the Dutch response to Covid to the same extent.

And others very shocked when he tells them he has those issues because he’s visibly slim and healthy looking at 78 - they associate bad health with being obese or making “bad choices” as they trot out a lot.
I have a friend from Texas who lives on a huge housing estate- no pavements as everyone drives. I asked her what about the elderly or people who can't drive for medical reasons? She said most people don't give it a thought. If you can't drive, you're not really considered at all. You have no business being there.

[quote apalledandshocked]@Bagelsandbrie Good old Calvinism. You see it to an extent in the Netherlands and the Dutch attitude to healthcare generally, although the two societies are radically different in lots of ways and it hasnt informed the Dutch response to Covid to the same extent.[/quote]
That is interesting.

I think there may be a good old fashioned element of “the American dream” mixed in with it to make a difference- ie, making your own future, no one telling you what to do, the whole culture of protecting your own castle as it were. Hunting, shooting, fishing - each other as well as the wildlife it seems. I’m aware I’m hugely over generalising. I do have some really left wing, sensitive and sensible US friends. It just fascinates me.

@Darklingthrush

And others very shocked when he tells them he has those issues because he’s visibly slim and healthy looking at 78 - they associate bad health with being obese or making “bad choices” as they trot out a lot. I have a friend from Texas who lives on a huge housing estate- no pavements as everyone drives. I asked her what about the elderly or people who can't drive for medical reasons? She said most people don't give it a thought. If you can't drive, you're not really considered at all. You have no business being there.

This is exactly the type of attitude I’ve experienced. Sad isn’t it.

I read, might be totally misinformed, that without insurance a covid test was $125, so a family for 4 need to find $500. Surely that’s having an affect on the numbers too, lots of hidden covid.

Their death rates per head of population are slightly better than ours.
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Not much different though.

@Bagelsandbrie It is interesting isnt it. Also complicated because Americans can be incredibly generous and kind as well. The Netherlands suprised me because it has a reputation for being incredibly liberal and progressive. It is. But there are some very wierd attitudes to ill health generally. While most countries will use sexual slurs/body parts as insults the worst insults in the Netherlands are associated with ill health. e.g. "Kanker op" which literally translates as "cancer off", typhus, kanker, etc etc are all attached to nouns as insults. Words associated with body parts - eg "Kut" are much milder. They are really reluctant to give (or accept) pain relief (for example during childbirth or having tooth fillings). Also, most doctors are extremely reluctant to suggest anything other than "take some parecetemol and drink lots of water".
Where the US and Netherlands differ is the US have the idea of the American dream and striving/pushing yourself forward as an individual, whereas the Dutch are much more about Doe maar noormal and social good. I don't think that American attitude is all bad, but it has proven a particularly disastrous combination for dealing with Covid.

And yes, very rapidly young children started calling each other "covid" as an insult.

[quote apalledandshocked]@Bagelsandbrie It is interesting isnt it. Also complicated because Americans can be incredibly generous and kind as well. The Netherlands suprised me because it has a reputation for being incredibly liberal and progressive. It is. But there are some very wierd attitudes to ill health generally. While most countries will use sexual slurs/body parts as insults the worst insults in the Netherlands are associated with ill health. e.g. "Kanker op" which literally translates as "cancer off", typhus, kanker, etc etc are all attached to nouns as insults. Words associated with body parts - eg "Kut" are much milder. They are really reluctant to give (or accept) pain relief (for example during childbirth or having tooth fillings). Also, most doctors are extremely reluctant to suggest anything other than "take some parecetemol and drink lots of water".
Where the US and Netherlands differ is the US have the idea of the American dream and striving/pushing yourself forward as an individual, whereas the Dutch are much more about Doe maar noormal and social good. I don't think that American attitude is all bad, but it has proven a particularly disastrous combination for dealing with Covid.[/quote]
Wow that is fascinating. (I love cultural stuff like this!) Thank you for sharing. The using negative health terms as insults is so strange.

A couple of sources, if you want to see the real picture in the US.

Firstly, covidtracking.com/ This has data and analysis, broken down regionally. The headline note is that the US has been very badly impacted, but it's largely been regional, mostly because the place is so big. So, in April/May New York was devastated, to the point they were struggling to cope with their dead. Now it's sweeping through California.

On California, the LA Times is worth reading. The coverage for the last week or two has been absolutely chilling. Hospitals rationing oxygen. Open discussion of triage committees to decide who gets ventilators. Ambulances told not to bring people with a low chance of survival to hospital. The opening up of pre-admission bays in hospital car parks, with one paramedic caring for multiple people in tents, so the ambulances bringing them can get out on the road again. Open concern about how to manage the bodies.

There is a strong strand of individualism and suspicion of authority in the US - more so than here - plus things like mask-wearing have become politicised. There's also a leadership vacuum. None of these things help. This means there has been no coherent national strategy. As others have said, the US is hugely regional. It's almost worth thinking of it as a collection of countries rather than one united states. Some have stricter regulations than us (my friend from Michigan was horrified we don't wear masks outside - mandatory there at the time). Some have lighter restrictions, but more observance of them, because people are scared. Some have lighter restrictions, which people are ignoring...

Looking at the official figures, their deaths/100k are similar to ours. However, when I last ran the stats in October, their excess deaths were substantially higher. At that point, it was clear that their official stats were capturing about a third fewer excess deaths as covid deaths than ours were. I don't know if that has continued through this wave but, I rather suspect that, when statisticians look back in a few years time, they will find they fared even worse than current fatality figures suggest. That's in the context of much lower population density and much higher levels of hospital and ITU beds per capita than the UK.

Basically, it's a mess. I have a friend who is a gerontologist in South Carolina, and I'm hearing similar stories of ITU overload and exhausted, crying nurses that I'm hearing from UK colleagues. If you're not hearing it's a mess it's because the UK news is running three stories: UK Covid, the Trump soap-opera, and Brexit. With no space to cover the American covid bloodbath. But it's happening.