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Original poster

Learner drivers - Legal experts help required.

103 replies

Comefromaway · 10/01/2021 21:13

Can anyone point me to the actual legislation whether it be the The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (No. 3) Regulations 2020 and 2021 amendments or the Road Traffic Act or Motor Vehicles (Driving Licence) Regulations or anything else, where it says that a Learner Driver cannot drive at all, even if making an essential journey with a member of their own household.

Eg. if I give my child a lift to work according to gov.uk & various people’s interpretations including a local 6th form, they cannot be the driver.

But I can’t find any actual legislation that says that.

OP posts:
Original poster
Comefromaway · 11/01/2021 09:38

@TheTeenageYears

It doesn't matter what an insurer says. If it's against the law it's an individual's responsibility to comply and relying on something from them will not be a get out. If a car is insured in a learners name the insurer will continue to cover the car because it needs to but that doesn't automatically mean the learner is allowed to drive it if there's either law or guidance to say otherwise.

I have a DS caught up in all this and I won't take any chances in this area - if you get it wrong, it's their driving record that's at stake and any court case to try and prove it was only guidelines and not law would take months/years and in the meantime where does it potentially leave them - possibly banned from driving????

No, it wouldn't take months to sort out because when you are prosecuted or fined you have to be informed of the law that you are being prosecuted under.

Which appears not to exist.

OP posts:
Iwantacookie · 11/01/2021 10:36

Why isnt this more widely publicized.
Ds1 has been out practicing Shock
I knew driving lessons were a no but I didnt have a clue he couldnt drive at all. I feel awful now but genuinely didnt know!

grafittiartist · 11/01/2021 10:42

Me too Iwantacookie.
I feel bad!
I also have 6 weeks of very expensive car insurance wasted.

Original poster
Comefromaway · 11/01/2021 10:44

Don't feel bad. I'm getting more and more convinced that it isn;t actually the law and as long as the driving practice is part of an essential journey you are doing nothing wrong.

OP posts:
Iwantacookie · 11/01/2021 10:54

@graffitiartist luckily his dad is paying his insurance but I've asked him to ring me I'm assuming he doesnt know either so I cant imagine he will be happy about that.
I know they havent been going far but they have taking the long way round so he can practice.
I'm not sure if I'm upset or angry anymore.
Judging by the police calling a cup of coffee a picnic the other day I dont rate his chances of getting off very high either.

grafittiartist · 11/01/2021 11:03

And the judgements from press/ media- it's horrible!

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 11/01/2021 11:54

@Comefromaway

Don't feel bad. I'm getting more and more convinced that it isn;t actually the law and as long as the driving practice is part of an essential journey you are doing nothing wrong.
Yes, but if the person supervising could have done the journey alone (eg shopping) then that could be interpreted as unnecessary on the part of the learner driver. And then there’s the matter that the document this is contained in is clearly marked as ‘Guidance’, whilst the wording in it states ‘cannot’ not ‘should not’ which suggests law. If the government intended a masterclass in obfuscation, they’ve succeeded admirably. Ultimately, I completely agree with PPs about the importance in the difference between law and guidelines. However, as someone else pointed out, in the event of any consequences it would be my 17 and 18 year old learner driver DDs that would suffer not me, and so, we won’t be risking it.
Seeline · 11/01/2021 12:31

I think the supervising driver could suffer if it is illegal. They can be prosecuted/have points in other situations when supervising.

puffinkoala · 11/01/2021 13:28

I would think it would come under not being a "reasonable excuse" to be out. Which is definitely law

Yes but if you were going to 6th form college (which some kids still are), you have to get there. If you don't use alternative transport, your parent would have to drive you, so both parent and child have to go regardless of who drives. It doesn't make any sense other than if they genuinely think there are going to be hundreds of accidents if learners drive. In which case, why not say so?

justaweeone · 11/01/2021 18:56

My DS just had an email from DVSA you now can practice on essential journeys 🤦‍♀️

justaweeone · 11/01/2021 18:59

We previously told you that private practice was not advised until the restrictions have been lifted.

Change in private practice guidance
Government guidance is very clear that people should be staying at home to save lives and protect the NHS unless the trip is essential. A journey solely for driver learning purposes is not considered essential.
However, current guidance has been reviewed and updated. You can only practise driving with members of your household or support bubble as part of travel for work, education or other essential journeys.
This position is the same in England, Scotland and Wales.
Thank you
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency

Find out how we collect, use and store your personal information at https://www.gov.uk/dvsa/privacyy_.

ShaunaTheSheep · 11/01/2021 19:03

Thank you

HotSauceCommittee · 11/01/2021 19:10

Thank you for this. I have obliviously driven to meet my son from work end had him practice driving on the journey back.
I have just cross checked the DVLA website and it is unequivocal in stating that learner drivers must not drive in England.
I am glad actually, because my son has a good few miles under his belt now and has started to be too cocky for my liking in the car.
Thanks again, OP Thanks

Springcatkin · 11/01/2021 19:17

I was about to let ds start but was planning to go to a huge shopping centre near and let him drive around the empty car park to start with which presumably would be ok as private land.
Obviously we would be shopping for heavy items that I cannot carry at the local pets at home

AKissAndASmile · 11/01/2021 19:22

@Iwantacookie

Why isnt this more widely publicized. Ds1 has been out practicing Shock I knew driving lessons were a no but I didnt have a clue he couldnt drive at all. I feel awful now but genuinely didnt know!
We almost went out at the weekend! Pretty shocked at this. Had no idea.
Standrewsschool · 11/01/2021 20:59

RAC

law

The RAC site links to the second link explaining the law.

ItsGoingTibiaK · 11/01/2021 21:14

@Standrewsschool

RAC

law

The RAC site links to the second link explaining the law.

The legislation you linked to is very old (originally enacted in February last year), now revoked, and has been superseded many times. It also makes no mention of learner drivers.
Standrewsschool · 11/01/2021 21:16

Okay, will have another search.

ItsGoingTibiaK · 11/01/2021 21:19

@justaweeone

We previously told you that private practice was not advised until the restrictions have been lifted.

Change in private practice guidance
Government guidance is very clear that people should be staying at home to save lives and protect the NHS unless the trip is essential. A journey solely for driver learning purposes is not considered essential.
However, current guidance has been reviewed and updated. You can only practise driving with members of your household or support bubble as part of travel for work, education or other essential journeys.
This position is the same in England, Scotland and Wales.
Thank you
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency

Find out how we collect, use and store your personal information at [[https://www.gov.uk/dvsa/privacy]]y_.

They’ve tweeted this message now, as well.

mobile.twitter.com/DVSAgovuk/status/1348690365428207622

ItsGoingTibiaK · 11/01/2021 21:20

@Standrewsschool

Okay, will have another search.
It never was part of legislation and DVSA have now updated the guidance (see above).
Bluntness100 · 11/01/2021 21:23

Op. I can see you’re determined to not go with the guidance if you can’t find a law to state it and understand a fine

I’d speak to the dvla ans insurer, she may ultimately get banned, ignorance is no defence.

Standrewsschool · 11/01/2021 21:27

driving.org

Found this. May also be out of date, but they seem to have tried to address the issue. May be worth contacting them?

ItsGoingTibiaK · 11/01/2021 21:28

@Bluntness100

Op. I can see you’re determined to not go with the guidance if you can’t find a law to state it and understand a fine

I’d speak to the dvla ans insurer, she may ultimately get banned, ignorance is no defence.

No need. DVSA have now updated the guidance. See above.
Original poster
Comefromaway · 11/01/2021 21:34

Thanks everyone.

Clarity is always good. Now we know where we stand.

OP posts:
ItsGoingTibiaK · 11/01/2021 21:34

@Standrewsschool

driving.org

Found this. May also be out of date, but they seem to have tried to address the issue. May be worth contacting them?

It is out of date and DVSA have now changed the guidance for England anyway.