Next announcement from Boris

[whoamitojudge]

Does anyone know when it is?
With all this new talk of this current lockdown not being enough I just wondered if maybe he’d step up and say something

I dont think support bubbles are the problem. It's peoples understanding of them, as evidenced on this thread

meaning we have hit peak if it carries on like it is doing and cases stailise

I think it would be terrible to stop bubbles, really cruel and I don’t think they will do it because they know that they would have blood on their hands.

Something they could do is to stop non essential business from operating. My DH works in a non essential role, his job cannot be done at home. he has to be in close contact with his colleagues, some of whom are happily mixing households outside of work.

@MadameBlobby

Ending support bubbles would be downright cruel. They are called “extended households” in Scotland so no different in terms of risk than if they lived together. I wonder how many people calling for them to be abolished live alone and face not seeing another person for months on end.

I do live alone and didn't see another person until support bubbles were allowed in June. As I said above, I have a closed support bubble. I still think they've become too lax, allow too much extended mixing and need to be tightened up. If that involves me accepting not seeing anyone else again for a while, so be it. I suspect the situation is becoming that serious. There are other ways to contact people and it won't be for ever.

@missymoomoomoomoomoo

I dont think support bubbles are the problem. It's peoples understanding of them, as evidenced on this thread

Agreed.

A single true “extended household” where the interactions are exactly the same as if they lived under the same roof - no issue.

[quote whoamitojudge]@yawnsvillex Closing more shops that aren’t classed as essential. Also places like Costa etc.
Lockdown means lockdown. What is it going to take for Boris to realise this?[/quote]
What’s it going to take for large swathes of the public to realise this?

[quote whoamitojudge]@yawnsvillex Closing more shops that aren’t classed as essential. Also places like Costa etc.
Lockdown means lockdown. What is it going to take for Boris to realise this?[/quote]
Boris is a coward. He doesn't have the balls to make tough decisions, the ones he does make he's forced into as a last resort when backed into a corner.

@WombatChocolate

What death rate and infection level would we need to reach before people thought ending support bubbles is the right thing?

Surely there must be a point at which it is necessary? If the virus is so widespread, wouldn’t most old and vulnerable people who live alone prefer to hold onto life than contact?

The trouble is, that the virus is often asymptomatic. It might be okay for non-vulnerable groups to get it from the person in their bubble who got it from the shops, or to pick it up whilst visiting the person in their support bubble and then pass it on, but the point is that the person in a vulnerable support bubble is probably seeing other people, perhaps through work or shops or whatever....they catch it and unwittingly pass it to their vulnerable friend in their bubble.

Close to 1/30 of London have it now, many with no symptoms. With it being very transmissible, support bubbles will be a key way it is passed on. Yes, being lonely is awful and damaging for mental health,but for the vulnerable, Covid is even more damaging.

Many (genuine) support bubbles don’t appreciably increase risk. No level of infection or death would make me thing giving up mine would be worth it, because it’s not adding to anyone’s risk and therefore there’d be no point.

The things that can be tightened up:
Stricter rules on who is entitled to a school place with all schools being forced to follow.
Stricter rules on essential/non essential shopping. Places like B&M and Garden Centres will NOT close BUT there will be a requirement to only be allowed to sell certain products. Supermarkets will also be restricted in what they can sell. See Wales and their firebreak. Forcing things to go to click and collect / delivery only for non essential items.
Closure of additional sections of the economy - more like we had back in March.
Stricter rules on take out food and drink. No drinks only - it must be part of a substantial meal. The Stop Costa rule.
Stricter rules on where you can go. You must stay within 5 miles of you home (or be on the way to the nearest supermarket or to your place of work).
A curfew, which makes it easier for enforcement by police.
Banning people from meeting up with someone else for exercise.
Masks mandatory at all times outside your home or vehicle (this is to discourage people from level the house in the first place rather than about decreasing the risk of infection).

Support bubbles will not be got rid of because the risk to life in doing so is higher than keeping them. Its not happening. It won't even be considered. So don't worry.

@Lifeispassingby

I don’t think support bubbles should be taken away but they are definitely being abused and used as excuse for so much. I know people who mix twice a day with their bubble just because they can, with no regard for the fact that a bubble doesn’t mean you can’t pass the virus on

Like a lot of things it's the piss takers who ruin it for everyone.

I am interested to know how many unavoidable interactions people have each day, It would depend on your job and individual circumstances. I have shared my household below.

Friday 8th Jan - Me
Position - NHS Admin position for Ambulance Trust in South East
Morning [ WFH - got up, had breakfast, Zoom call with team
Lunchtime -Pop downstairs and offer DDs BF who lives with us and is also WFH a drink and lunch
Afternoon - Continue to take calls and respond to emails etc
3pm - DD returns from a day working at nursery, she tells me she took them out on a walk and they stopped below my window and called out my name :) ) I didnt hear them, she seems happy but very tired
5pm - close my pc and then message or call my DS , one working from home and the other a key worker.
6pm - eat dinner, and bed.

So from above I have had very little social interaction with anyone except, if you think about it look at my DDs day below and I live with her, so inadvertently I have socialised with all the children she looks after and their families.

Friday - DD - Nursery Worker and uni student
8am - Walk to work
8.10 - 8.30am - staggered drop off by the parents to nursery, meet and greet them, parents have masks etc
9.30am - snack and drink for the children, One has a runny nose, so help him blow it. The others all seem healthy and happy
10am - Free Play, my DD time to be on outside duty, its really cold inside and out though as all windows and doors are kept open.

12am - Lunch -
Afternoon - take the dc on a walk around the local area, mainly to keep them active as its so cold but also its safer than being cooped up inside.
(lots of other acitivties at nursery but just summarised a few)
3pm, walk home and spend evening with mum and BF who have been WFH, exhausted so went to bed at 8

DDS BF
Position - WFH Admin role
8.30am - eat breakfast and then log on to PC for the morning work
Lunch - eat Lunch with MIL who is also working from home
Afternoon - More WFH
3pm - GF comes home and gives me a hug and kiss, she has had a hard day today and needs some affection.

Sorry if I should have posted this elsewhere. I just think the impact on each household is so varied, you could assume myself and my DDs BF were very safe and it is just DD herself at risk but all those she comes into contact with including us are at risk too.

There are no measures to eradicate risk entirely and on Friday my DD said the council have asked to encourage all parents to take up their nursery places or there is a risk nursery will close in April as they wont receive their grant from the govermnent.

Interesting that you don’t think your support bubble adds to risk levels. Do you think that is the case for all or most of them?

The thing is, lots of those support bubbles are between people who also see lots of other people in the course of the week...at school, in work etc. Isn’t it all about the vectors or connections or contacts that occur - it’s these that allow the disease to spread.

Where a support bubble is 2 people and neither ever see anyone else at all...well that probably is safe. But in reality, how many of the support bubbles with single parents or single adults of working age can honestly say that neither person in The bubble ever sees anyone else? And remember it’s not just about those 2 people getting it, but them being an additional vector to take it back out to those who will be hospitalised, suffer long Covid or die.

Do people think they might close nurseries?

Yes, as Jeansaurus says, even those who seemingly have very few contacts are indirectly connected to lots of others, through the fact that one of their contacts has seen many more people.

If we were to draw diagrams of the people we have had contact with and all their contacts, the diagram would be pretty huge. And each line is a vector was transmitting a disease which spreads far more easily now. Seeing fewer people and reducing the size of those diagrams significantly is the answer.

@ferntwist

Do people think they might close nurseries?

I think it depends if its a private nursery or a state one. My DD works in a nursery and has been told to advise all parents to send in their DC or the nursery wont receive its grant. The council have warned without full attendance the nursery will close in April

[quote FitnessFad]@statisticalsense Why just under 25 and elderly? I am 40.
You have absolutely no idea. Are you living with a partner /family yourself?[/quote]
This.
Spoke to my cousin last night who said it will be great for her and DH, another couple and I to get together via Zoom for an online catch up and quiz. Tragic I know, but have been looking forward to this all day - (Live solo).
I'm in my late 50's.

@StatisticalSense

End of support bubbles and closure of garden centres and places of worship and hopefully play areas. Maybe limiting take-aways to places that offer substantial meals (as in no popping in for a coffee but allowed for meals). Limiting key worker school places to households in which all adults are keyworkers. Masks outdoors make no sense and it sends completely the wrong message to have any rule for outdoor areas other than avoid busy ones completely.

This.

My DD lives in shared accommodation with someone who frequently has his DC's and numerous partners to stay and she has had to isolate 4 times now; she can't see her DF as he's recovering from lung cancer and still CEV. My DS's see each other to coordinate my DF's shopping; he is alone, has advanced dementia and doesn't qualify for Social Care support; also CEV but had his vaccine today - he still goes out though, wanders around Sainsburys and doesn't really understand the risk. I'm just waiting for him to contract the virus. I live alone and can't form a bubble with any of them because of our individual circumstances, it feels too risky. 15 people in the building I should be working in, have the virus. Everything is virtual and we are absolutely inundated with high risk mental health cases (NHS). I have never seen anything like it.

My own mental health is deteriorating and I know I am depressed and very anxious. I can't face telling my GP that I'm not coping much less my Manager, I feel ashamed when there are so many in worse situations than me. But spending many weeks and months without person to person interaction and being with my DC's does funny things to the mind. So I hope the Govt doesn't restrict those because I'm just hanging on til I can get my vaccine and maybe just be able to see my DC.

What’s it going to take for large swathes of the public to realise this?

Yup. Around here I went for my daily local walk, the roads are packed and shops are busy. Long long queues outside Starbucks (I live near a retail park).

It is very very different to the first lockdown.

Discourage visors: So many people are wearing visors instead of masks. In my local butchers and hairdressers all staff wear visors only. They think this is as effective as a mask. I accept that for some people it is all that they can tolerate, but that is not what is happening in many cases. This needs to be more widely publicised.

Not surprising, saw so so many advising people to wear visors if they didnt want to wear masks it was ridiculous..thought it was quite widely known that hey are effectively useless unless ALSO with a mask..but nope. Seen this on MN a hell of a lot. Bad advice..

@bluebellscorner our country council run parks / reservoir were closed & policed during lockdown #1.
Many people do actually use the street / pavement for exercise in a regular basis. Just thinking about the joggers...
I have avoided said parks for a long time now, as they are very crowded at the moment. I take my dogs for walks around an nearby industrial estate... not ideal but it has plenty of space and just a few scattered walkers.

The theory behind the original single person support bubbles was good but the reality is many travel miles for them, have used them to date etc.

Childcare bubbles were designed for just that but many are seeing them socially and the baby under 1 bubbles means a two adult house can freely mix with another.

It’s led to a whole lot of indoor mixing so I would make sense to revisit it. Along with really tightening up on school places so no place of wfh or both parents aren’t keyworkers and pressure on firms to ensure anyone who can wfh.

My dad is in our support bubble but we haven't done more than drop stuff off for weeks - just don't feel it's safe as I work in a school.

Wearing a mask outside in the cold is great - keeps your nose warm. Looking for positives here.

I see lots of groups of families on walks. It isn’t 2 individuals together. It is 4 adults and 5 kids. They go for a walk in a crowd and get a takeaway coffee and huddle together to chat at the playground.

People do a daily shop or go 4 times a week, rather than look to just do a big shop weekly and perhaps one quick top-up. It’s because they like the outing and don’t quite plan ahead for fewer visits (aprart from those without cars) ...but they could go less frequently. Our neighbour pops to the corner shop every evening for beers or a chocolate bar. It isn’t ‘stay at home’ and it’s not necessary, but it’s considered totally normal and acceptable....and then people wonder why it keeps spreading.

Everyday on MN I read something that makes me wonder wtf is wrong with people. Stop support bubbles, no businesses should be allowed to open, you should have to apply for permission to open your own front door, how dare you have any fun don’t you know there’s a pandemic on! Some people won’t be happy until we are welded into our houses. Wuhan got it right didn’t they?!

The virus doesn’t worry me, I know it’s scary but all our ancestors must have survived all other pandemics or else we wouldn’t be here wasting our time would we?

It’s people’s attitudes that are really scaring me, not sure the vaccine is going to change the awful sanctimonious people who feel they have the right to pass comment on every aspect of someone’s else’s life. People have got to a right to live not just sit around waiting for impending death. But some people won’t be happy until we are as fucking anxious as they are.