Next announcement from Boris

[whoamitojudge]

Does anyone know when it is?
With all this new talk of this current lockdown not being enough I just wondered if maybe he’d step up and say something

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Ending support bubbles would be cruel. If I was single that's one change I would ignore.

If hospitals cannot manage something has to give!

@Curlygirl06 to answer your question down thread- yes they do sometimes spend quite a long time with a customer, this is from behind a screen with masks and a visor.

But, every single me member of the 21 members of staff caught it. Despite copious expensive and rigorous 'Covid safe' measures. So it's not just transmission from customers you need to consider, but from fellow members of staff,

Why should people who live alone have to give up their support bubble and be condemned to 24/7 solitary confinement for however long?

We could turn around and say if it’s household transmission causing the issue then families should be isolated as they are causing far more spread than us singletons who only pop to the shops occasionally.

''Isolating people from their support bubbles would be as cruel as isolating children from their peers.

Oh wait....''

Whilst I think of us so hard for children at the moment, particularly when they don't have any siblings, they are as always living with at least one parent so will have someone to talk to/ interact with.

Adults that live alone have no one currently.

@VivaVegas

''Isolating people from their support bubbles would be as cruel as isolating children from their peers.

Oh wait....''

Whilst I think of us so hard for children at the moment, particularly when they don't have any siblings, they are as always living with at least one parent so will have someone to talk to/ interact with.

Adults that live alone have no one currently.

Well, unless those parents are working from home whilst shoving said child in front of a tv for 12 hours, the mumsnet way

I definitely don't think they will cut single person bubbles, where's the line when a single person becomes a vulnerable person, vulnerable to self harm from a MH point, vulnerable to scams?

That is a very fine line and lots of people are sticklers for rules and common sense goes out the window.

As someone that goes to church I definitely think places of worship should close. Hard though it is, and for some single and some who get a high amount of support through religion people very hard it is just not a priority. I am not attending today though my church services are continuing.

@WitchesBritchesPumpkinPants

Close any business that isn't on an established list who refuses to allow their staff to wfh just because they want them under their beady eye.

Stop the football/cricket/rugby etc - they've already proven the can't be trusted not to break bubbles & not party.

Reduce the numbers in schools - much stricter about who can attend.

Stop the under 1 bubble - unless someone can explain why one of the other bubbles isn't sufficient.

Crack down on the 'childcare' bubble. It's NOT designed for allowing a 'family bubble with grandparents & parents etc. Hand the children over & leave.

Ask people to realky think hard about support bubbles (because you can doesn't mean you should!! Do it if you HAVE to, but not just because you can). & to stick to the one bubble rule, if you do it.

Remind people to shop as infrequently as possible, not every day for bits & pieces.

More compulsory mask wearing. A friend works in a petrol station they don't have to wear masks behind the plastic screen. Funnily enough the virus can go under/over/around it AND there are several staff members all behind there. 🙄🙄

Knock some sense into parents standing around at the park gasbagging to each other.

But schools-thats the biggest one.
Followed by hospital. There's an unacceptable level of transmissions while in there. Not sure where it's going wrong, but they need to find out & put SS uch money into it as is needed & get ALL staff vaccinated ASAP

This! And I’d go further - you should have to print out a document to explain why you are out like in France. Paper copies sent to each household. Massively reduce the allowed bubbles (sadly necessary as so many people are taking the piss) and very clear adverts about what is NOT allowed. Get rid of the meet one other adult rule, again this is sad but people have been seeing several people a day.

I am in a support bubble. Where I mix with one other person.
I also work in a nursery where I’m currently mixing with 15 children (usually 25) and 11 adults without any social distancing or mitigating factors.
What do you think would have the biggest effect on community transmission...

In the end ,not he government has to weigh the negative outcomes of all these options and choose the one which is least bad for the majority.

If the NHS gets filled up with Covid patients and cannot take any more and cannot care for those with cancer and heart attacks and road accident injuries and all the household injuries that happen every day, then the health if the nation will drop dramatically now and into the longer term. This in itself has further economic consequences and consequences for inequality as it will all hit the less well off worse.

They have to weigh this issue against people wanting to send their kids to school, to go to work and to not be isolated. They have to think about the short term and long term consequences.

Individuals tend to think about their personal situation and the short term impacts, rather than the bigger picture and longer term consequences. It's normal to think like that but the job if government to look at the bigger issues.

There is a point where the consequences of healthcare failure will override the other issues. They will have to. The government mig have to stop most people going to work or hardly anyone going to school and to say all but the mist extreme cases cannot see people outside their household...for a period of time. And this will mean that cases don't rise at the rates they are or prevent anyone having other health issues getting treated.

These are hard choices for a government who doesn't like to infringe civil liberties. But it's their job to make them.

Most people are roughly sticking to a loose interpretation of the rules at the moment. But the rules aren't clear enough or tight enough. In a week, an individual can see and chat with numerous people and still be roughly within the rules. It's too many contacts to prevent the spread of a highly infectious disease.

Just count up how many people you have seen and spoken to this week - on walks, in houses, in shops, at the door, at work, on school run. Total them up. And consider how many people each of them also saw. This is how it spreads.

Frazzled - it’s not just about which one is the greater risk though. It’s about reducing total contacts as much as possible. You may think your one other adult is lower risk but it’s still an extra contact. Just because you deem your other contacts riskier doesn’t mean you can see safely see other people. In fact in your situation I’d suggest it’s your bubble person taking the most risk by seeing you. It’s not just about your personal risk either it’s about everyone reducing their contacts so that overall contacts are reduced to slow transmission.

[quote whoamitojudge]@Curlygirl06
The majority of staff that I work with on checkouts wear masks even behind the screens as it gives us a little bit more safety[/quote]
Same as our place, most do but some don't.

I still think we need to look at the age groups filling the hospitals and having honest conversations about how they have caught Covid. The older people mixing with lots of others, even out walking, is a transmission route and if the aim is to ease the pressure on the hospitals then they need to reconsider their behaviour more than 'the parents gassing in the park', because the children and parents aren't going to hospital.

We've just had a few cases in my local paper of elderly people waiting three hours for ambulances. All were outdoor accidents, that could have been prevented. None were for essential shopping. Round my way there's lots of community volunteers, there's no need for the amount of really vulnerable people that are out, on buses etc, day in day out. For them, vaccines are only a month away.

I'm sick of the restrictions on children and the attitudes towards them, when I don't see any change in the behaviour of the age groups (of which I'm one) filling the hospitals.

People didn't accept not seeing all of their elderly relatives over Christmas. Well then they need to accept death a lot better. We've known since March that doctors would be making tough decisions about who gets treatment and whose going to just be made comfortable to die.

My GC being kept in, isn't going to do anything for their 77 year old, cancer patient neighbour who is out on public transport every day. So why is it them who gets tuts at when out?

And I do get the total contact thing. But I and many others at the start, including Chris Whitty had got our heads around that we have to learn to live with a virus that attacks older groups of people. Learning to live with the virus doesn't include stopping the rest of society, indefinitely.

If our vacation program goes well then we need the government to be tough on those coming into the country and unvaccinated older people who want to go abroad.

@Ponoka7

And I do get the total contact thing. But I and many others at the start, including Chris Whitty had got our heads around that we have to learn to live with a virus that attacks older groups of people. Learning to live with the virus doesn't include stopping the rest of society, indefinitely.

If our vacation program goes well then we need the government to be tough on those coming into the country and unvaccinated older people who want to go abroad.

You are a wise lady

Presumably if they were to stop support bubbles a lot of people would move in and become a single household? I know thay wouldn't work for many people but it would work for a lot of families, including some I know.

We did this with mil during the first lockdown when FIL was dying and subsequently died. She stayed for about 3 months.

But it's not ideal for anyone longer term really unless it's something everyone really wants and plans for, for much longer than making a quick decision due to a pandemic. Mil was really keen to be able to,get back home in the end and start to rebuild her life without FIL. She knew she had to start learning to live alone. And she missed her own home.

And that wouldn't work for 18y dd who needs to be at her university town to access face to face sessions. But those sessions don't make up for no daily contact with people,she is close to. The face to face sessions are done at a distance with no real social contact. Should she then be expected to live the rest of her week sat in an empty flat alone? I'd be concerned for her mental health if she was to be isolated in that way longer term.

The point of curfews is to stop people going to others households and mixing.

I don't think 1pm or 5pm is the answer but there is value to say 8pm to 6am.

Much less people on the roads and streets that time of day going about their usual business. Much more likely those who wish to flout rules and meet friends inside for drinks are going to be going out to do so.

It's got to be all about balancing restrictions on people's everyday lives Vs managing to stop the things that are causing spread so those who are sticking to restrictions aren't restricted further.

The idea of going to the shops for a wander around

I think wombat replied this, it was my mistake. I didn't mean we were planning to wander around in the shops, just take our walk for exercise around the shopping square, expecting it to be quiet, as surely all the non-essential shops should be closed. The definition of essential seems very different to what it was in the summer.

I think the problem is that people aren't willing to restrict themselves after seeing how Cummings was treated.

I am just hopeful that the vaccines work and we can all come out of lockdown soon.

Plenty of people are using shops for their daily exercise. That's the issue. Families wandering around shops or even just wandering in the vicinity increasing footfall on top of the people who are there and maybe are doing essential shopping.

even just wandering in the vicinity increasing footfall on top of the people who are there

That's why we backed away, when we saw how busy it was.

It's one of the issues of living in a city, trying to find a vaguely pleasant walk.

still think we need to look at the age groups filling the hospitals and having honest conversations about how they have caught Covid.

But many will be because they caught covid IN hospital, which puts the NHS in a very bad light. Hospitals should be safe places, but, pre covid, norovirus would often run through hospitals like wildfire, so NHS staff are clearly not doing all they could to stop patients catching diseases/infections whilst they're in hospital.

People need to think about their week and think ahead a bit more. The question people need to ask, is where can I reduce contact with people, how can I stay at home more?

Lots of people, if they think about it and choose to do it, could make fewer visits to the shops. They could make fewer non-essential visits to places like garden centres or cafes for a takeaway. If they thought ahead and wanted to reduce contact they could take a hot drink out from home on their walk, rather than pop into a takeaway. They could choose to only meet 1 person all week for walks, rather than a different person each day, or to just walk with their household. They could tell their children that they can only walk with the same person all week or with the family.

People just need to think about the contacts they are having and reduce it. Recognise that each shop counter and shop worker you have contact with is a chance for the disease to spread, each time you go I the newsagent for chocolate or some beers is a chance. Each time you have the takeaway person come to your door. Each time you go into a busier area where people will pass you.

It's not about any particular and specific rules, but reducing the number of people you see and have contact with in the week....this involves staying at home far more and thinking much more about when you do go out and who you see.

Hospitals might not be entirely safe places and yes lots of people get Covid there. That doesn't mean staff aren't trying to do all they can to prevent infection. It means that it's practically impossible to prevent in its spread when the ad lots of people with it.

So, none of us would want to go to hospital at the moment or for our elderly or vulnerable friends or family to have to go for any reason. But they will have to go because people have falls or they have a heart attack or get pneumonia or need to go for ongoing cancer treatment etc. And the reason the hospitals are not safe is because so many people are in there already with Covid because it has been spread by too many people acting as vectors for it by simply having too many contacts each week with people who have also had too many contacts.

People struggle to see how their non-essential visit to the corner shop for a chocolate bar impacts anything. But if they are asymptomatic and give it to the shop worker, who then passes it to several customers who pass it on to others which include some people who get hospitalised, quickly the hospitals are full and with all the best PPE and cleaning in the world, it still spreads, the hospitals will fill and more people will die....not just of Covid but because they can't be treated for the usual illnesses of being old and vulnerable...or not even old or vulnerable which befall people.

I agree that support bubbles are a genuine lifeline and shouldn't go. But with a range of support bubbles available, hopefully no adult is now alone.

I think a PP's point about minimising contacts is the key one and think the "meeting one person outside" allowance should go (as is already the case in Wales). Yes, meeting someone outside might be low risk, but it's still some risk which is more with the new variant and in colder weather; most people don't socially distance all the time and will frequently look at the person they are walking with (i.e. breathe in their direction). Not to mention that it allows for you meeting multiple people over the course of a week (and where I live 1 in 30 is thought to have Covid, so if you meet one different person a day, your odds of meeting someone with Covid start to look pretty high) and it just provides the mindset that it's ok to meet others; where the message should be we only do this if essential.

seriously - you want the meeting outside with 1 person to go? that's ridiculous. All the events of the year prove outside transmission is minimal even when hundreds meet up never mind 1-1!

if i'm working with 40+ people all day and half the country forming bubbles with god knows who, i'll sure as hell meet who i want outside 1-1