Next announcement from Boris

[whoamitojudge]

Does anyone know when it is?
With all this new talk of this current lockdown not being enough I just wondered if maybe he’d step up and say something

I haven't broken the rules, but If they stopped support bubbles then I would. I'm isolating with covid so I have a small window where hopefully I have some immunity.

My mum is in her twilight years and had a fall just before Christmas. I think I would rather take my chance with my own premature death than sit miles away on my arse while she rolls about on the floor for 15 hours again.

I cant see a point in a life where support bubbles arent allowed for vulnerable family.

@Chaotic45

I'm not sure exactly how current measures could be strengthened but I can think of a few very easy wins:

Stop click and collect of any old retail: My husband works in non essential retail. They are as busy as ever with an almost full team in place as customers are shopping via click and collect. Non of the items are remotely essential. How can the government on one hand tell us we should leave home only for a few reasons, but then make click and collect of any non essential retail items allowed?

Discourage visors: So many people are wearing visors instead of masks. In my local butchers and hairdressers all staff wear visors only. They think this is as effective as a mask. I accept that for some people it is all that they can tolerate, but that is not what is happening in many cases. This needs to be more widely publicised.

Ventilation: many many places aren't keeping doors open. I know it is cold but this has been proven to make an enormous difference. My local garage, post office, corner shop, chemist all have no windows and keep the door closed. I don't think this is an informed decision- they just don't know what a huge difference natural ventilation can make.

Register bubbles: ask people to register their bubble details online to help stop those abusing the system and having multiple bubbles.

Push home working: in lockdown one I had 15 customers who began to wfh for the first time ever. 13 of these have now gone back to their workplace- they all tell me they could work perfectly well from home but their employers want them back in the workplace.

Provide higher grade masks for some vital workers who are constantly at risk e.g. bus drivers, bin men (all together in one cab), driving instructors, care workers etc.. In fact I can't understand why these are still in such short supply, surely since March we could have ramped up production so they were more readily available?

Doors are fire proof and have to be shut.

@Curlygirl06 that's interesting and I absolutely sympathise as to how hard it is to wear a mask all day.

However we were recently astounded when 21 out of 22 of DH's colleagues all tested positive. This included DH.

They work in retail and had taken every precaution. We know measures were followed as they should have been and these included masks at all times and changed every 2 hours, visors, temperature testing, customers by appt only, social distancing at all times, screens, a cleaning monitor, deep cleans each evening, ultra violet boxes to clean phones. They sell high value items so could afford to spend a lot of money on measures but they weren't enough.

They now wonder if they needed better ventilation.

It's been a huge shock and has made us all question how transmissible this virus is.

Similarly, I’ve stuck to 99% of the rules. I admittedly don’t walk 2m apart from friends when on a walk or I bump into them on nursery pick up. But if they remove my support bubble for my under 1 year old, I will break the rules. It’s my lifeline in the face of PND.

I live ON a central London high street and can't relate to all the talk on this thread about crowded high streets, crammed shops and busy roads. I feel people are acting responsibly around me. I don't think anyone wants this to last any longer than it has to, and my impression is that people are doing their best to reduce the spread etc.

That said I just can't see how daily walks/exercise in the park, or the odd takeaway coffee, is to blame for the spike in cases.

@24HoursInPoliceCustody do you mean that entrances to shops from the outside pavement have to be closed as they are fire doors?

They are left open in summer so I'm not sure that is the case.

No way should they get rid of support bubbles. Many people rely on these. You simply can not expect people to be isolated entirely on their own.

My mil needs her support bubble. FIL died in April during the first lockdown. No way should she be expected to spend weeks in her own with no face to face support.

18y is a first year student and is living alone, as her flat mates left in October and haven't returned. Dd is still having face to,face due to the course she is doing but bar 2 sessions a week she'd be home alone, 2 hours away from us. She has bubbled with a flat below where she has made friends and can have daily contact.

I would tell both to ignore any such restriction if it was brought in, and I can't imagine any one in a support bubble would follow a rule to ban them.

Even our government wouldn't be so cruelly surely?!

Well other countries have restricted walks outside.

I don't think they would restrict support bubbles, but possibly if a single person is elderly or disabled. Maybe takeaways and nurseries.

Would there normally be anyone out and about to mix with after the time proposed for a curfew? Is people mixing outside in the dark really driving the spread of Covid? Surely not!

Well, yes, a curfew would stop people mixing outdoors (and outdoors might be "safe", but groups huddled in bus shelters are not necessarily).

A curfew would also stop people visiting other people in their homes after a certain time. Yes, that's against restrictions now, but everyone on MN has a neighbour/cousin/best friend's sister's colleague who regularly flouts said restrictions. If there is a curfew, then the only (?) reasons for people being out at that time would be going/to from work or medical emergency. So it would be glaringly obvious if you were breaking rules, which would put a lot of rule breakers off. Or so the theory goes.

@StatisticalSense

End of support bubbles and closure of garden centres and places of worship and hopefully play areas. Maybe limiting take-aways to places that offer substantial meals (as in no popping in for a coffee but allowed for meals). Limiting key worker school places to households in which all adults are keyworkers. Masks outdoors make no sense and it sends completely the wrong message to have any rule for outdoor areas other than avoid busy ones completely.

“Hopefully play areas” really? Isn’t it enough that kids are kicked out of school to be limping along maybe getting a bit of education at home. You want to shutdown play areas the one place that they can run around and be like children. Not everyone has a garden, what a fucking cruel, miserable thing to say!

Masks outside are fairly routine in Europe and other countries so can't see why that would be too much of an issue.

Masks in school classrooms for all adults in primary and secondary, and all secondary school students. Some exemptions for special schools and if teaching children who have hearing loss. Normal exemptions could apply too obviously.

Stricter rules on school attendance rather than the DfE and Gavin adding increasing numbers at the drop of a hat.

Stricter entry requirements when coming into the country.

Increase in the vaccine programme, as soon as supplies can be upped, to be longer hours for receiving vaccines.

Oh, and clinically vulnerable teaching staff should be able to,work from home rather than in classrooms with no social distancing, no masks, no protection. As should children who are CV and staff/children who,live with someone who is CEV.

What death rate and infection level would we need to reach before people thought ending support bubbles is the right thing?

It should never be taken away from single adults living alone.
An isolated person having no face to face contact for weeks or months is likely to cause a huge issue with mental health, and could well lead to an increase in other death rates.

How can anyone think it's okay to expect people to not be allowed any physical contact with another person indefinitely?!

[quote Chaotic45]@Curlygirl06 that's interesting and I absolutely sympathise as to how hard it is to wear a mask all day.

However we were recently astounded when 21 out of 22 of DH's colleagues all tested positive. This included DH.

They work in retail and had taken every precaution. We know measures were followed as they should have been and these included masks at all times and changed every 2 hours, visors, temperature testing, customers by appt only, social distancing at all times, screens, a cleaning monitor, deep cleans each evening, ultra violet boxes to clean phones. They sell high value items so could afford to spend a lot of money on measures but they weren't enough.

They now wonder if they needed better ventilation.

It's been a huge shock and has made us all question how transmissible this virus is. [/quote]
Are they perhaps spending a long time with customers, helping them choose items? Like phone packages, or jewelery? That would increase their contact time with possible positive cases?
To be fair we have much less limited time with customers at the till-unpack shopping, scan, pay, pack and leave. A lot of our staff wear masks on the till, some don't. As far as I know there's not been a case at our work yet that can be traced to our place, but we live in the south west which is, or has been, very low case numbers so far.

I think the real issue is more likely the amount of businesses expecting staff to work in the office, or employees actually choosing to work in the office than at home as they prefer it to struggling at home with children/family around.

I know a local business where all support staff are in full time as it's easier for staff to do their job. The vast majority can work from home but efficiency drops and it makes the job a bit trickier. The core staff are working part time in office and part time at home. Again the vast majority could work from home full time but would rather not.

Another I know stressing to allow staff to work from home despite there being no genuine reason for them to not do so. The two employees don't like staff at home as they can't micro manage their daily work as much when staff aren't in their offices.

These kind of situations need addressing. It would be a much quicker way to avoid mixing of dozens of households, even if they do have some social distancing, than many other options. These aces don't have to wear masks in their offices, even those in open plan rooms 'because they are 2m apart' apparently.

As someone not living in the UK I am amazed staff in shops are allowed to be unmasked. Well actually I'm astounded really by the whole lack of masks.
The point of curfew is that it is easier to crack down on people meeting outdoors but also meeting in other people's houses. You're more obviously possibly breaking the rules about mixing if you're out and about after curfew. And it makes people think twice.

They're not social bubbles, they are support bubbles and for many they are absolutely not a nicety, they are a lifeline. I have abided by the rules so far, only saw family last year because my dad died and some of them came to his funeral, have only seen two of my friends (one of them for outside walks only) since March, I need my DP as my support bubble to keep me sane, the loneliness of lockdown 1 nearly broke me.

Exactly the same position as you, including my Dad dying

Support bubbles are a linked household. It would be exactly the same situation if you moved in with them.

It's funny how keen people are to give other people's rights away. How about stopping child contact with the non resident parent where parents are divorced? I notice that hasn't been suggested but would hugely reduce transmission.

Or as people have said, require people to isolate in different rooms within their own houses. Requiring no bedsharing with DHs, nor any intimacy with your family. We must all do our bit!

I don't of course believe that is justifiable or right, as I'm not a callous, smug, self-satisfied empathy vacuum of a person who thinks making changes which don't affect them but emotionally are unbearable for others is absolutely justified for the good of the country.

The park local to my school is constantly packed at the moment. We drove by to go to the supermarket today and last weekend and it was heaving. The playground was so busy with adults stood close together and the children all mixing. We were going to go for a walk after our shop but drove by once we'd seen it.
The cafe there now has a large marquee and people gather under it to drink coffee. They've no tables and chairs, but people still stand in groups chatting.

It's hardly any wonder covid swept through my school based on the local park being as it is, the huge numbers of families mixing, and how it has been throughout this autumn/winter,

I am in a childcare bubble with my daughter. Dgs goes to nursery from 9 to 3 but I have him before and after school. If couldn’t be in the bubble either dd or sil would have be furloughed. The are both key workers , one a teacher and the other is about to start work as a call taker for the fire service.

I am happy to do before and after nursery but I don’t think I would have the energy to look after him full time ie no nursery as I feel I am getting too old.

Masks are marginally useful but they are very far from being a panacea (especially with the new strain).

We have recently had a case of confirmed transmission within my office. Two colleagues had a 10 minute conversation with each other in the corridor (so the ventilation there was worse than in the open area). Both wore surgical masks and stayed around 1.5-2 meters away from each other. One infected the other.

There were no cases of transmission in the general office area (large open space with high ceilings even though employees do not have to wear masks when they sit at their desks 2 meter away from their colleagues). The pre-symptomatic maskless employee spent around 8 hours at his desk without passing on the infection.

No, they aren't a panacea but if everyone wears them AND follows the other guidelines then transmission is reduced more than if people aren't wearing them.
I mean I just don't get it, why WOULDN'T you make them compulsory? Why are British people such weirdos about this?

I really hope support bubbles aren't removed. I am a widow with a 13 year old and a 15 year old and in a bubble with my friend, who lives a few minutes walk away, and her children. It keeps us sane and we don't bubble with anyone else. I am working from home every day and it's very lonely having no adult company. My DC are great but they would rather be on their screens and chatting to their friends than talking to me (as I was at their age).

@Curlygirl06
The majority of staff that I work with on checkouts wear masks even behind the screens as it gives us a little bit more safety

@TrinidadQueen

Masks in outdoor, public busy areas I expect .

I've been wearing mine in between shops anyway just taking it off to drive its better than my scarf at keeping my nose warm

His resignation