Is anyone else surprised at how many people are unable to hold measured conversation or discussion on covid?

[Whatnowwhat]

I’m both surprised and drained about this. MN is a good example of it, too.

I work in what would be classed as an educated-only and professional job. Myself and my colleagues have huge amounts of responsibility to the public and we have constant pressure to deliver excellence at all times. The industry, like pharmaceuticals, is heavily regulated and monitored.

All of my colleagues bar one or two are able to discuss covid at length without the bizarre statements that seem to appear on MN and on social media. By this I mean that we recognise that doctors - yes, even Chris Whitty - can and do get things wrong. Pharmaceutical companies not only make errors but are corrupt on many levels like all companies to some degree. Money is always a factor. Doctors fuck things up, they don’t have all the answers. The PM may or may not have an agenda - I don’t mean a huge conspiracy but of course advantages are taken by government to drive society in a way that suits their ideology best. That’s a form of control. It doesn’t mean it’s the conspiracy control that people seem to jump to; it doesn’t mean there’s no control or agenda, either.

So many people want to police each other and those who have flouted all sorts of rules and laws historically, now suddenly sit behind keyboards casting judgements on the lives of others that they know nothing about.

I’m so surprised at the aggressive shit that is posted everywhere. I really didn’t know there were people out there like this who can’t hold a reasoned and balanced discussion which considers another point of view and fundamentally understands that there is a grey area in absolutely everything. People blindly accepting government advice without being able to critically analyse it WHILE following said rules. People who point blank want the vaccine but are unable to understand why others may not. People assuming every doctor out there knows it all and should 100% be trusted - you hope they know what they’re doing but they’re people, people make mistakes.

I just cannot get my head around those who just spout out government slogans and seem unable to follow government guidance and general advice without lifting themselves above it all and actually considering other view points or being able to have a call discussion. I’ve lost count of the number of threads that are called goady or where the OP is assumed to be a conspiracy theorist because they are simply considering that a vaccine might not be something they wish to take. Threads even being reported where there is a different viewpoint expressed. It’s crazy.

Is this done out of fear do you think? I hope we are out of this ASAP but I’m also grateful to those who are open to all thoughts and considerations, who want to interrogate the information out there. If you worked in the job I do, you wouldn’t want to flout the rules but you really really wouldn’t trust and accept that everything that comes out of the mouth of a professional is correct - whether it is for corrupt purposes or simply a mistake being made. Discussions and conversations are important where health and politics and the economy are concerned and it’s been shocking to me to see that so many are unable to have them.

Yanbu.

Online is completely different from real life.

Never assume that those who dominate a site are in any way representative of the wider community.

The opinions which are predominant on MN are usually the opposite of what 'wins' in RL (literally, when it comes to national votes)

That’s interesting @AuntieStella and reassuring. I’d have thought MN may have represented a random selection of society. No expert on that though!

Are you an anti-vaxxer, OP? You’ve framed this about being open to reasonable discussion, and willingness to understand that people have agendas. Out of curiosity, where are you getting your factual evidence base from?

I'm surprised how many people want to discuss it. It is like having a friend with a dreadful relationship- she knows it's awful, I know it's awful, we've gone over it at length and yet we still have to talk about it every time I speak to her.

Mmm, I can only partially agree with your main argument.

I think its the difference between people in the way they think. Not what they think, but quite literally how they reach their conclusions. Some people are pragmatic, or driven to find the first set of facts that support their opinion. The facts must be found to support essentially what seems to them "common sense" Other people will work in the opposite direction looking at all available evidence and then forming an opinion. Others like me will have a theoretical starting point and create a hypothesis, test the facts against this to see if the evidence supports my position. Others will accept the opinion of others without question, others just like to argue and troll for kicks. Some think with their heads, some rely of feelings.

However we reach our respective opinions we are all entitled to voice them. We can win a debate by asking questions until someone trips over their own contradictions, or we can state our own position. We can try to reach a consensus, or we can try to beat others into the ground and discredit them. Either way, its in the process of open dialogue and debate that we can come together and work out what's what.

I'm quite cynical too about why you have posted your OP. What is the motivation? because it would be entirely wrong to assume other posters here are inferior somehow because they put their opinion to you in a different way, or because some people make a point but fail to validate this with explanation. I often cannot be arsed to argue. I'll say my bit and wander off to read something else. As do others I'd assume. Doesn't make us idiots.

I work in what would be classed as an educated-only and professional job.

All of my colleagues bar one or two are able to discuss covid at length without the bizarre statements that seem to appear on MN and on social media.

What's your theory OP?

Readers of MN probably do represent a reasonable cross section of society, posters, perhaps not. I think you're right that there is a tendency to aggression which may put some people off joining a discussion but I'm really only seeing this approach on line.

In real life people express their understanding of nuance and complexity quite well. I'm talking to people who are concerned but by no means hysterical. If real life was anything like on line I'd become a hermit.

@Noellodee

Are you an anti-vaxxer, OP? You’ve framed this about being open to reasonable discussion, and willingness to understand that people have agendas. Out of curiosity, where are you getting your factual evidence base from?

Not an anti vaxxer.

Astonished at the extremes in opinions here and on social media/tv, where there is not debate or discussion on someone else’s point. Particularly on MN, where someone disagrees with another poster, they often say they’re going to report the thread

@MiniTheMinx

I'm quite cynical too about why you have posted your OP. What is the motivation? because it would be entirely wrong to assume other posters here are inferior somehow because they put their opinion to you in a different way, or because some people make a point but fail to validate this with explanation. I often cannot be arsed to argue. I'll say my bit and wander off to read something else. As do others I'd assume. Doesn't make us idiots.

It’s a discussion forum and my motivation for posting was to discuss this topic.

I didn’t say that everyone who fails to address or consider a view different to their own is stupid or inferior. I suggest it may well be that one is less intelligent if they are unable to consider a different point of view. My main conclusion actually was that perhaps people do this out of fear. And that too was raised as a question mark, for consideration.

It is actually rather ironic that you’d assume there’s something sinister going on. I was simply raising a discussion. Next you’ll be posting which rather underlines my point!

Astonished at the extremes in opinions here and on social media/tv, where there is not debate or discussion on someone else’s point. Particularly on MN, where someone disagrees with another poster, they often say they’re going to report the thread confused

Its the equivalent to no platforming in acadedia. Where does this hysterical behaviour come from? I'd say we have become victims of our sense of victim identity. We are increasingly driven to form our subjectivity as victims.

I suspect it’s because it’s an unmitigated shit show, and people are quite panicked at this point.

We have reasonable discussions about COVID where I am, but that’s probably because we have the luxury of being detached from it.

I've never once posted a doughnut....is that a doughnut? I'm not actually disagreeing with you......just so we are clear. Nuance and questioning is as you say "intelligent"
But I'm suggesting that sometimes people state their opinion and wander off because they are busy, or feel its pointless to debate. Yes, sometimes I've given up or not even engaged because the gap in understanding or we are thinking in polar opposite paradigms. I think its too ambitious to expect people not to be a bit hysterical about what they perceive as a threat to their most fundamental welfare.....their health and indeed their life (for some). The government and media have quite purposefully engineered fear.

If there were awards for being self congratulatory and patronising, OP, this post would be worthy of nomination for one.

It's a very interesting point and one I wonder about often.

The only tentative conclusion I've reached is that social media use has led to extreme polarisation of views - whether Covid, Trump, identity politics, BLM - and when people post their view on social media (Mumsnet, Twitter), they want validation and a dopamine hit each time someone likes their comment or posts agreement. There have been studies which show that validation on social media is linked to a dopamine surge, and the cycle is then reinforced. I think this is spilling over into real life where, for every viewpoint, people feel that you're either with me or against me. If people disagree then the instinct is to block them and denigrate their view.

Social media - and in particular its algorithms - reinforce your views. If you like fluffy animals videos on TikTok then more of these types of videos will appear in your feed. If you like alt right videos, these will come to the front of your feed and any politically left videos won't make their way into your feed. Basically we tune out any information we don't like or agree with, and have our own opinions reinforced by being exposed to more and more data which confirms what we believe.

Whilst hypocritical (I waste hours on Mumsnet and TikTok), I wish to god that social media had never been invented. It's poisonous and destroys lives (and no, I don't believe I'm exaggerating when I say this). It leads to situations like today's riots in Washington DC. It promotes conspiracy theories and undermines and kind of cohesive social structures.

I can't see things improving.

I think I know what you mean. People have become quite vitriolic in their opinions, and all the opinions are different, which means any conversation about it always feels like you're actually dodging a rather brutal argument. For example, I think an awful lot of people have become absolutely insane with worry about their own personal risk from covid, when they are perfectly healthy. If I say this it is then implied that I'm some sort of covid denier because long covid/underlying health conditions/etc.

I just avoid those conversations now. Nothing to be gained. I'll try offer reassurance if someone has clearly disappeared down a rabbit hole, but otherwise, nope, avoid.

There's no place for you on mumsnet Op, you're far too rational. I think on the whole, common sense is lacking in many areas.

That said, your comment people unable to understand reasons why others don't want the vaccine is open to question. Most reasons given for covid vaccine refusal are fucking ridiculous and based on scare mongering and misinformation. I'm sick of hearing that people who trust the licensed vaccine are "lacking critical thought". That's nonsense.

I've seen many threads like these which start rather faux innocently, pondering why the public don't question the government. It then transpires that the Op has a clear anti vax agenda and fills the thread with medical "evidence" from dubious sources.

Sorry for my cynicism.

@MiniTheMinx

I've never once posted a doughnut....is that a doughnut? I'm not actually disagreeing with you......just so we are clear. Nuance and questioning is as you say "intelligent" But I'm suggesting that sometimes people state their opinion and wander off because they are busy, or feel its pointless to debate. Yes, sometimes I've given up or not even engaged because the gap in understanding or we are thinking in polar opposite paradigms. I think its too ambitious to expect people not to be a bit hysterical about what they perceive as a threat to their most fundamental welfare.....their health and indeed their life (for some). The government and media have quite purposefully engineered fear.

Yes the media has a LOT to answer for.

@unmarkedbythat

If there were awards for being self congratulatory and patronising, OP, this post would be worthy of nomination for one.

Thank you, most kind.

@DappledOliveGroves

It's a very interesting point and one I wonder about often.

The only tentative conclusion I've reached is that social media use has led to extreme polarisation of views - whether Covid, Trump, identity politics, BLM - and when people post their view on social media (Mumsnet, Twitter), they want validation and a dopamine hit each time someone likes their comment or posts agreement. There have been studies which show that validation on social media is linked to a dopamine surge, and the cycle is then reinforced. I think this is spilling over into real life where, for every viewpoint, people feel that you're either with me or against me. If people disagree then the instinct is to block them and denigrate their view.

Social media - and in particular its algorithms - reinforce your views. If you like fluffy animals videos on TikTok then more of these types of videos will appear in your feed. If you like alt right videos, these will come to the front of your feed and any politically left videos won't make their way into your feed. Basically we tune out any information we don't like or agree with, and have our own opinions reinforced by being exposed to more and more data which confirms what we believe.

Whilst hypocritical (I waste hours on Mumsnet and TikTok), I wish to god that social media had never been invented. It's poisonous and destroys lives (and no, I don't believe I'm exaggerating when I say this). It leads to situations like today's riots in Washington DC. It promotes conspiracy theories and undermines and kind of cohesive social structures.

I can't see things improving.

This is really interesting. Makes complete sense and I can totally see the hit you get when seeking validation of your views and bam it’s there in front of you from strangers in minutes.

@Notlostjustexploring

I think I know what you mean. People have become quite vitriolic in their opinions, and all the opinions are different, which means any conversation about it always feels like you're actually dodging a rather brutal argument. For example, I think an awful lot of people have become absolutely insane with worry about their own personal risk from covid, when they are perfectly healthy. If I say this it is then implied that I'm some sort of covid denier because long covid/underlying health conditions/etc.

I just avoid those conversations now. Nothing to be gained. I'll try offer reassurance if someone has clearly disappeared down a rabbit hole, but otherwise, nope, avoid.

Yes definitely - you literally cannot say anything that queries the vaccine (even if you intend on having it!), because that means you’re suddenly an anti vaxxer and conspiracy theorist. Or the best one...you have an ‘agenda’ with your post. I see that a lot.

@SmileyClare

There's no place for you on mumsnet Op, you're far too rational. I think on the whole, common sense is lacking in many areas.

That said, your comment people unable to understand reasons why others don't want the vaccine is open to question. Most reasons given for covid vaccine refusal are fucking ridiculous and based on scare mongering and misinformation. I'm sick of hearing that people who trust the licensed vaccine are "lacking critical thought". That's nonsense.

I've seen many threads like these which start rather faux innocently, pondering why the public don't question the government. It then transpires that the Op has a clear anti vax agenda and fills the thread with medical "evidence" from dubious sources.

Sorry for my cynicism.

I expect there are lots of people who do that, but, really, if they believe there is a conspiracy and they have researched on the vaccine and want to share that research, why shouldn’t they? Do we need to report those threads? Can’t we either hide the thread if it is so offensive to us or, given we’ve clicked on the discussion for a reason, actually read it through and engage in the topic. I just don’t see the point in coming onto a discussion forum to go and tell the teacher when you don’t agree with what it posted. I actually cringe for posters who are a) bothered enough to report something like that and b) can’t see the irony of being on a discussion forum and trying to silence someone.

Well, yes... I do agree that measured conversation has been lost. In the sense that most posters online, or at least those with the loudest voices, tend to be from the extreme ends of the Covid debate and voices in the middle are lost.

But the loudest voices on MN, in my experience, are those who are either flat out COVID-deniers and conspiracy theorists who believe Covid doesn't exist/was engineered in a lab/5G conspiracy/Bill Gates population control; mask-deniers; antivaxxers; and those who insist Covid is just the flu and totally not a big deal and fuck elderly and vulnerable people they were gonna die anyway.

On the other end of the scale there are disaster/apocalypse junkies who salivate over any possible disaster and gleefully predict rioting, mass deaths and starvation, and the end to civilised society at the drop of a hat. The posts about lockdown going on FOREVER or those predicting mass riots are almost indistinguishable from the posts about how Brexit would lead to mass rioting and the end of society, Corbyn would lead to the end of society, the Iraq war would cause the end of the world, Putin would launch nuclear war, Trump would start a nuclear war, etc. etc. etc.

The posters who are excessively terrified of Covid specifically (e.g. cheese in tea poster, crisps on bench poster, touching stiles is killing grannies poster, will I die if I open a window poster) are very much in the minority and are mocked and berated loudly and at length whenever they post.

In my experience people who are true moderates - people who recognise that Covid is serious and that restrictions are necessary to protect the vulnerable and avoid overloading the NHS, but that the personal risk to their own health is minimal, who live sensibly and are happy to do basic things like wear a mask but aren't cowering in their houses - those posters get it in the neck from both the conspiracy theorist brigade and the disaster junkies equally, and so become disillusioned and stop posting.

I agree with you op. MN isn't a reflection of the conversations people are having in RL.

But it's wider than Covid and vaccine discussions. Anything other than the prevailing opinion on MN gets completely shut down

if they have researched on the vaccine and want to share that research, why shouldn’t they?

Free speech is an important issue to be sure, but 99% of the time when people say they have "researched" things about vaccines they mean they have watched YouTube videos or read things on Facebook.

Watching YouTube videos is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "research."

Unless someone has has gone to the trouble of learning the basics of virology (I'm not talking about doing a degree or anything crazy, just reading a biology textbook, maybe reading a couple of books on virology, maybe doing a free science course on Coursera/EdX/Harvard.edu - just the absolute bare minimum basics to be considered well-informed) and have taken the time to read at least a couple of articles written by virologists and epidemiologists, then frankly they have not done "research".