Is anyone else surprised at how many people are unable to hold measured conversation or discussion on covid?

[Whatnowwhat]

I’m both surprised and drained about this. MN is a good example of it, too.

I work in what would be classed as an educated-only and professional job. Myself and my colleagues have huge amounts of responsibility to the public and we have constant pressure to deliver excellence at all times. The industry, like pharmaceuticals, is heavily regulated and monitored.

All of my colleagues bar one or two are able to discuss covid at length without the bizarre statements that seem to appear on MN and on social media. By this I mean that we recognise that doctors - yes, even Chris Whitty - can and do get things wrong. Pharmaceutical companies not only make errors but are corrupt on many levels like all companies to some degree. Money is always a factor. Doctors fuck things up, they don’t have all the answers. The PM may or may not have an agenda - I don’t mean a huge conspiracy but of course advantages are taken by government to drive society in a way that suits their ideology best. That’s a form of control. It doesn’t mean it’s the conspiracy control that people seem to jump to; it doesn’t mean there’s no control or agenda, either.

So many people want to police each other and those who have flouted all sorts of rules and laws historically, now suddenly sit behind keyboards casting judgements on the lives of others that they know nothing about.

I’m so surprised at the aggressive shit that is posted everywhere. I really didn’t know there were people out there like this who can’t hold a reasoned and balanced discussion which considers another point of view and fundamentally understands that there is a grey area in absolutely everything. People blindly accepting government advice without being able to critically analyse it WHILE following said rules. People who point blank want the vaccine but are unable to understand why others may not. People assuming every doctor out there knows it all and should 100% be trusted - you hope they know what they’re doing but they’re people, people make mistakes.

I just cannot get my head around those who just spout out government slogans and seem unable to follow government guidance and general advice without lifting themselves above it all and actually considering other view points or being able to have a call discussion. I’ve lost count of the number of threads that are called goady or where the OP is assumed to be a conspiracy theorist because they are simply considering that a vaccine might not be something they wish to take. Threads even being reported where there is a different viewpoint expressed. It’s crazy.

Is this done out of fear do you think? I hope we are out of this ASAP but I’m also grateful to those who are open to all thoughts and considerations, who want to interrogate the information out there. If you worked in the job I do, you wouldn’t want to flout the rules but you really really wouldn’t trust and accept that everything that comes out of the mouth of a professional is correct - whether it is for corrupt purposes or simply a mistake being made. Discussions and conversations are important where health and politics and the economy are concerned and it’s been shocking to me to see that so many are unable to have them.

Yes, everything Dappled said!

If this had happened 10 years ago, I think you'd have seen the kinds of conversations you allude to on mumsnet. Certainly I remember having conversations of that type on all kinds of topics on here, although there have always been polarised bunfights (Formula with a side of sleep training, anyone??)

But it has got much much worse and the polarisation has led to some extreme scenarios where a LOT of people are stuck in self-confirming bubbles, and can't see past this and the obviousness of what they believe is right. You have always seen this to an extent with certain polarising topics, but now you see it with EVERYTHING, and anything political in particular.

This article series is incredibly long-winded but I think it's worth a read, it's a sort of deep dive into how this has happened in terms of psychology (using a lot of metaphors rather than actual psychological terms, though) and goes into the current situation although I think the author might have put a pause on publishing it in case he was accused of trying to influence the US election, as it seems to have suddenly stopped with no further updates. "Thinking in 3D" and "Politics in 3D" are the relevant parts, if you want to start there.

waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/story-of-us.html

Meh, I like to remain cynical of posts on social media and question the agenda of the poster. All too often I've entered into similar measured discussion only to discover after twenty minutes I'm talking to a raving lunatic.

I'm not sure why you're surprised that many people can't hold a measured conversation or discussion on (any topic). Half the population are below average IQ and the average reading ability in the UK? 9yrs.

However that doesn't make academics sitting about pontificating any more superior. It takes all sorts to spin a world. Perhaps you can't mend an engine on a car, paint a breathtakingly picture or dig the foundations of a building.

There's no obligation to attempt deep analytical conversation with strangers online. It's quite a fruitless activity.

Also consider the cracked plate analogy. You have a cracked plate and it appears that you always pick that one from the pile to use, it's so annoying. In fact, you don't pick the cracked plate anymore often than the others but it sticks in your mind because it's so obviously different and noticeable.

The same is true to some extent when you read a thread on Mumsnet. The vitriolic angry or bigoted voices are often the loudest even though there are probably more reasoned, logical views presented.

Also MN is huge now. I often come across a topic I think is interesting but by the time I read it there are over 300 posts and I can't be bothered to respond, because I know that the tone will already have been set, it's probably a back and forth tennis match about something completely different to what I wanted to say and (from experience) if I do spend time and effort writing a considered thought it tends to be ignored if it doesn't have direct relevance to the ongoing bunfight.

It is actually rather ironic that you’d assume there’s something sinister going on. I was simply raising a discussion

That's not irony. You don't make an observation and make a claim for irony when you find evidence of that observation.

@SmileyClare

Meh, I like to remain cynical of posts on social media and question the agenda of the poster. All too often I've entered into similar measured discussion only to discover after twenty minutes I'm talking to a raving lunatic.

I'm not sure why you're surprised that many people can't hold a measured conversation or discussion on (any topic). Half the population are below average IQ and the average reading ability in the UK? 9yrs.

However that doesn't make academics sitting about pontificating any more superior. It takes all sorts to spin a world. Perhaps you can't mend an engine on a car, paint a breathtakingly picture or dig the foundations of a building.

There's no obligation to attempt deep analytical conversation with strangers online. It's quite a fruitless activity.

Also consider the cracked plate analogy. You have a cracked plate and it appears that you always pick that one from the pile to use, it's so annoying. In fact, you don't pick the cracked plate anymore often than the others but it sticks in your mind because it's so obviously different and noticeable.

The same is true to some extent when you read a thread on Mumsnet. The vitriolic angry or bigoted voices are often the loudest even though there are probably more reasoned, logical views presented.

@SmileyClare is that honestly the case that the average reading age is 9?! I’m off to google that one. If true I am shocked.

@FourTeaFallOut

It is actually rather ironic that you’d assume there’s something sinister going on. I was simply raising a discussion

That's not irony. You don't make an observation and make a claim for irony when you find evidence of that observation.

@FourTeaFallOut you have taken the sentence out of the context and removed the prior sentences. If you piece it back together you’ll see that it is in fact ironic that someone would label my own post as potentially sinister when that same post was centred around the question as to why people do just that. Hope that helps.

If you accuse posters of being cynical and paranoid and then they behave cynically and in an accusatory manner - that's not irony. It would only be ironic if they were behaving cynically whilst at the same time arguing that they were not - which the poster wasn't. Hth

I think most mnetters are openly cynical at this point. Especially when posters make appeals to authority, like how smart and professional their colleagues are.

All opinions are worth listening to but they are not equal. I think most posters are well past the point of listening to mistruths being passed off as 'nuanced concern'.

@FourTeaFallOut

If you accuse posters of being cynical and paranoid and then they behave cynically and in an accusatory manner - that's not irony. It would only be ironic if they were behaving cynically whilst at the same time arguing that they were not - which the poster wasn't. Hth

It’s very much that when the poster doesn’t recognise that they are doing exactly what my post was referring to, whilst holding out to be having a balanced and rational discussion.

This confusion happens when you take a snippet of text without consideration of the context and the linked sentences to those that you have - perhaps deliberately- selected.

But of course I wouldn’t want to be cynical.

@FourTeaFallOut

I think most mnetters are openly cynical at this point. Especially when posters make appeals to authority, like how smart and professional their colleagues are.

All opinions are worth listening to but they are not equal. I think most posters are well past the point of listening to mistruths being passed off as 'nuanced concern'.

Reference to colleagues was to try and shed some light on why those rational conversations can and do take place in that circle, that was all. Certainly no agenda, I’m afraid.

I agree it's frustrating when any even slightly controversial discussion is opened on here only to be shut down and deleted due to a high number of "reports" from people taking offence.

If the debate is allowed to evolve, a more measured discussion eventually develops. It could have opened the eyes of very close minded thinkers. It's rarely allowed to reach that natural conclusion.

It's no skin off my nose if you are or aren't. I do think that the limitations of speaking online do lead to increasingly polarised arguments. That's not particular to the topic of the coronavirus but the stakes are higher and, given that no-one has to endure each others company at work tomorrow, the gloves do come off.

My Facebook is full on conspiracy theories. People posting about how it is only a 0.00000007 death rate. Saw a post the other day asking why it is fair people can flee domestic abuse then went on to give a definition on what abuse is including being controlled, someone saying what you can and can't do, forcing away from your family then went on to say this is what Boris is doing therefore by that logic should be able to flee him . Many posts on news articles of people claiming hospitals are empty, this is just the flu, and the ambiguous comments of 'this has never been about covid, something is brewing'. And I still see many people making comments about doing their own 'risk assessment', and still at this point failing to realise the risk is never and has never been about them but the greater public. The mind boggles.

Luckily, most people I encounter in real life seem to actually grasp the reality of the situation.

All my colleagues bar one or two are about to discuss covid at length without the bizarre statements you see appearing on social media

I feel a little sorry for those two. I have visions of them being ostracized in the canteen and excluded from the staff Christmas party.

Sorry I meant able to discuss. I have the proof reading skills of a 9 year-old haha.

I admitted to being cynical. But then I am, in general, and in relation to the motivation behind the OP. Being cynical makes me question things.

Talking of irony, there is an certain irony in suggesting others should question the experts such as doctors whilst saying only "educated professionals" are capable of doing this. There seems to be some sort of appeal to intellectual superiority, whilst simultaneously saying experts should be questioned. When I fail to accept the expertise of the educated professionals, I'm in a sense doing exactly as I was implored to do. .

I'm also shocked by the average reading age. I wonder what their comprehension is like? my syntax is shit... .does that count!

I'm always up for reading a bit of conspiracy theory. Michael Parenti (marxist academic) has had a lot to say on conspiracy theories. He basically says "we have a theory that they conspire against us" and as the OP so eloquently points out, "they" do. Ideology is what conspires to stop us questioning the status quo.

I very much believe we have a novel virus, and its highly contagious etc,.. but I am also concerned about the erosion of civil liberties, and I'm also aware that Gates is a malthusian, and Bojo is a puppet. We were also on the brink of a global economic recession before February 2020. I have watched a fair few conspiracy films on YouTube and mostly been confused with the complete lack of logic, but some of what I've read or heard has made me think. Many of the theories hinge on some known truth, but mostly it discredits itself through lack of internal logic. But I think its better to listen and consider before writing off every other perspective.

[quote BertieBotts]Yes, everything Dappled said!

If this had happened 10 years ago, I think you'd have seen the kinds of conversations you allude to on mumsnet. Certainly I remember having conversations of that type on all kinds of topics on here, although there have always been polarised bunfights (Formula with a side of sleep training, anyone??)

But it has got much much worse and the polarisation has led to some extreme scenarios where a LOT of people are stuck in self-confirming bubbles, and can't see past this and the obviousness of what they believe is right. You have always seen this to an extent with certain polarising topics, but now you see it with EVERYTHING, and anything political in particular.

This article series is incredibly long-winded but I think it's worth a read, it's a sort of deep dive into how this has happened in terms of psychology (using a lot of metaphors rather than actual psychological terms, though) and goes into the current situation although I think the author might have put a pause on publishing it in case he was accused of trying to influence the US election, as it seems to have suddenly stopped with no further updates. "Thinking in 3D" and "Politics in 3D" are the relevant parts, if you want to start there.

waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/story-of-us.html[/quote]
I agree with this, but I especially want to thank the poster for the link. I was awake at 3 am browsing Mumsnet and came across it - two hours later I was completely enthralled and have signed up to the site. Well worth looking at.

Haha, yes, it is a bit of a time stealer!

I agree. A balanced view very hard to come by. It strikes me people fall into two camps. They either believe conspiracy theories or they just follow government information without looking beneath the surface.

I agree. COVID has changed my opinion of many people, organisations and MP’s. I think this period will be studied in later years with disbelief.

I'm not a professional person in any sense, but I kind of get your meaning @Whatnowwhat.

People would say I'm very anxious about the virus, but then I'm a very anxious person in general and suffer from anxiety about my family long before COVID.

I haven't been anywhere except outdoor walks and to our support bubble, waved to family from across our road, and to get medical help when my DC had COVID (think school), and to a chemist as rarely as possible. Wash shopping etc. Wear masks. Since March. We've washed our hands on getting in for years. My DC have worn masks in school except eating since the first day back (later they were required in corridors for my eldest year, then in classes and everyone was doing it). I should've gone to the hairdresser though when cases were extremely low.

I too am shocked at how polarised things are.

I try to read studies and make sense of the virology. I think scientific research is how we find out more about the virus, how it behaves etc. I believe that scientists mostly get it right.

I don't trust the government especially a Tory government, but any government really. Like you, I am 100% certain that it's not a conspiracy. I do think they use it opportunistically to forward their agendas though and try to profit.

Because I don't trust the government, doesn't mean I don't think the rules should be followed by everyone.

It's common sense IMO. The rules are about breaking chains of transmission. Breaking chains of transmission helps slow the spread until we can get the vaccines out, get better treatments, stop the NHS being overwhelmed, reduces mutation.

It's common sense that masks are somewhat effective and that's better than nothing so why not.

I couldn't believe it when some people actually believed when it was said that children do not get it, or that children don't spread it. I don't think there's ever been a virus in history that children cannot spread.

The prevailing view has chopped and changed so much depending on what stage we are in at the time.

Re vaccines, I must admit I'm a bit angry at those who won't take it, but I respect it's their choice.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here, like I say I'm not a professional or eloquent, just that I get what you mean.