Do you think tier 5 (if it happens) will still include childcare/support bubbles?

[Swearlikemalcolmtucker]

Just been reading about the possibility of tighter restrictions and was wondering what people thought the likelihood of bubbles still being allowed was?
I know nobody actually knows, was just wondering - I was trying to think how much stricter it could get aside from closing schools and playgrounds and places of worship again, and bubbles were the only other thing I could think of

There’s a lot of other things that could get tighter yet, we are a long long way off how shut down everything was in March, eg offices and many other workplaces are largely open again when they weren’t (the guidance is wfh but it’s not as strongly worded as in March and far more people are in offices than they were during lockdown 1), cleaners trades persons etc are going into peoples homes as usual etc, shops like b&m could be clamped down to essential goods only to drop footfall, reduce numbers allowed in supermarkets etc, remove the rule of 6 outside.

But it’s anyone’s guess what will happen next. If the above was clamped down on then the risk posed by support bubbles would also reduce.

I really, really hope they don't get rid of support bubbles. I think it was a human rights abuse not to have them from the start, was really shocked there wasn't an outcry (especially from the political left). It's just unacceptable to isolate humans like that. Who knows if they will try it though.

As for childcare bubbles, I suppose they could reduce them to essential only. If lots of parents are at home because everything's closed they don't need a childcare bubble. Where they still do it would presumably come under the giving care exceptions. And single parents could use the support bubble system for some relief.

I think that in reality tier 5 would be closing schools. That's the most obvious thing. Can't think of anything else though.

I don’t think the can or should stop support or childcare bubbles. Support bubbles were introduced for specific reasons and are very much needed for those who qualify. Childcare bubbles are essential for work especially if school and nurseries close.

There is no rule if 6 in tier 4.

You can go to a public outdoor space with one other person who isn't in your household and children under 5 don't count.

If childcare bubbles are stopped I'll be ignoring it. I am a single parent, can't work from home and I'm not a key worker so if school is shut DS will be going to whoever is able to have him so I can work.

They shouldn't. Just because some people take the piss (eg multiple "bubbles" with seeing several extended members of the family) shouldn't mean people who actually do rely on them and use them as intended should suffer.

I can not see a scenario where support bubbles would be stopped. The damage that would cause would be enormous, surely?

Yes this is what I was thinking. I have a one year old DS, DH works full time and I am working part time so I’ve only been using the childcare bubble with my parents when I need to. However I’ve suffered PND and having them as our support bubble has literally saved my sanity.

Maybe back to school closures and no childcare bubbles if we need to. I'm in childcare and back in the last lockdown it was vulnerable and key workers children only. Seems like the logical next step if we need to do something further than we are

Support bubbles are different to childcare bubbles tho and should still stand. A lot of people are using childcare bubbles to socialise with their parents tho which isn't in the spirit of what it's intended for

Id rather they closed schools and I had to go back to arguing with my teens about doing work than having my support bubble cancelled.

@HibernatingTill2030

They shouldn't. Just because some people take the piss (eg multiple "bubbles" with seeing several extended members of the family) shouldn't mean people who actually do rely on them and use them as intended should suffer.

I think this gets to the heart of the issue. Proper bubbles that function as one family unit, just living in 2 homes are not especially risky.

Its when people chop and change their bubbles and increase their contacts that risks grow exponentially.

If support and childcare bubbles were used purely for what they were intended that would be fine but of course they are being abused eg multiple support bubbles, childcare bubbles used for socialising (eg the adult staying with the kids) also so called support groups (allowed) actually being groups of friends meeting up. I'm seeing people using creative interpretation to try to convince themselves that they are within the law, which they are definitely not in the spirit of!

I really hope support bubbles aren’t stopped, for people like my elderly neighbours (in her 90s) and living alone it means she’s can have her daughter come and help her out. It’s a genuine lifeline for her. But I agree with a PP that some are really stretching the concept of childcare bubbles, I know so many people with multiple bubbles in place eg with each set of grandparents rather than just one and it’s not used for childcare, it’s for social reasons. I know it sucks not seeing grandparents but they ought to be protected, not exposed further via this “loophole”.

But I agree with a PP that some are really stretching the concept of childcare bubbles, I know so many people with multiple bubbles in place eg with each set of grandparents rather than just one and it’s not used for childcare, it’s for social reasons. I know it sucks not seeing grandparents but they ought to be protected, not exposed further via this “loophole”.

Bubbling with both sets of grandparents (assuming that that’s two sets of two grandparents) isn’t a loophole, it’s breaking the rules. You can only be in one childcare bubble - using it for social reasons (children playing with granny), rather than necessary childcare is a bit of a loophole though.

I don’t see how they can get rid of bubbles. All the people who live alone but require care from family (my gran is one) will suddenly need far more state help, and if/when they don’t get it, they’ll be more likely to end up in hospital, which doesn’t help anyone. And what about key workers who rely on childcare from family, my aunt looks after my cousin’s toddler while she works as a nurse. Ban that and that’s a nurse who can’t work (she was on maternity leave during the first lockdown, before childcare bubbles were brought in). Banning those sorts of bubbles would really show how unaware they are of the huge amount of informal care family members provide, and what the burden would be if that care suddenly wasn’t there.

Children whose parents are separated will still be able to move for share access.

Though Mr Johnson's children won't be affected, if the suggestion that they are 'team mum' is true.

Some people don't have just one person who can commit to childcare. I have to use multiple people as I have no one willing or able to do 5 days a week of childcare. I don't care if it's breaking the rules at this point. I need to work.

No because I cannot think in an area like ours with schools already closed what else he has to take away that realistically involves human contact. He cannot take away food and medicine and outdoor exercise with members of your own household is very low risk and I don’t think impacts transmission enough.

Remember our schools are shut for the foreseeable so I am assume support bubbles of all types are the only thing left to go?

My dad is disabled with severe MS and my mum is his carer. They’ll have to break the rules if bubbles close, he had a fall last week at 11pm (happens relatively frequently) and my mum is a small woman in her 60s - there’s no way she could lift him. The options were 1) call my brother in law who is a strong bloke and could get him up or 2) wait 8 hours for paramedics to come help. They couldn’t get hold of BIL for a while so called the paramedics and they (rightly) said they were on their knees with emergencies, and wouldn’t be able to make it til morning. They eventually tracked down BIL and he was able to help. This was allowed under the bubble rules, if they close bubbles mum and dad will be breaking them. As a full time carer as well she needs support and a break.

Arguably I could ‘cope’ easier without a bubble as mother of a 5 month old but given I’m suffering with PND at the moment (and a related resurgence of self-harm) having someone to come over and provide support if I’m having a bad day has been essential. I have a DH but he’s working all the hours god gives at the moment as they’re making redundancies at his work at the moment and if he loses his job we’ll lose our house. Tbh we’re not leaving the house anyway - DH doesn’t have time and I can’t face it. Supermarket delivery fortnightly and that’s pretty much it. So our bubble isn’t really furthering infections etc.

These are the real life stories behind bubbles. The reason for infections is schools and people breaking the rules (who won’t give a shit if we go into Tier 300, they’ll just carry on doing it).

Dolly that sounds so hard. I wanted to say that providing care was an allowable exception before the concept of bubbles though. Sometimes you have to help out.

My partner and I work full time. We can wfh if we have to but a lot of my work would then be 'live' online so I have to be at a certain place at a certain time. We have no family so can't form a support bubble. Nor are we keyworkers. But our employers can't just absent us from what we're doing either (we're not furlough-able). Wtf do we do? How do we cope? We have two under 4.

Not particularly advocating these but there’s lots more scope. Schools aside they could close zoos and NT places, close “non essential essential shops” like garden centres, prevent non essential workers in people’s homes (plumber for burst water pipe/no heating is necessary, decorators repainting your lounge is not), shit down the premier league, close non essential industries, shut takeaways, impose a curfew, start jailing people for eg organising a mass rave, close places of worship, tighten up bubbles (theoretically one granny with a few kids could be support bubble to one, childcare bubble to another, “baby under 1” bubble to another, plus provide care for elderly under “providing care” - madness), mandate masks more widely... or they could actually make a substantial difference by paying people properly to isolate, paying people to get tested and provide proper isolation facilities for those in crowded homes.

I will still be using my support bubble even if the rules change, had to do one in the first lockdown as a single parent with an evening job. Unless I give it up and lose my home and we both cant eat.

It would be inhumane to stop bubbles. I for one would not be complying at all if they stopped them. Mine saved my life.

@Theotherrudolph

Not particularly advocating these but there’s lots more scope. Schools aside they could close zoos and NT places, close “non essential essential shops” like garden centres, prevent non essential workers in people’s homes (plumber for burst water pipe/no heating is necessary, decorators repainting your lounge is not), shit down the premier league, close non essential industries, shut takeaways, impose a curfew, start jailing people for eg organising a mass rave, close places of worship, tighten up bubbles (theoretically one granny with a few kids could be support bubble to one, childcare bubble to another, “baby under 1” bubble to another, plus provide care for elderly under “providing care” - madness), mandate masks more widely... or they could actually make a substantial difference by paying people properly to isolate, paying people to get tested and provide proper isolation facilities for those in crowded homes.

Actually under the bubble rules the granny couldn't be in both a single person support bubble and a baby under one bubble. They are both classed as support bubbles and you can only be in one support bubble. People really need to follow the bubble rules, bubbles as defined by the rules are essential and need to stay, but people not following it properly could ruin it for everyone.