Government now allowing mixing and matching of different vaccines

[Em777]

From the New York Times:

Amid a sputtering vaccine rollout and fears of a new and potentially more transmissible variant of the coronavirus, Britain has quietly updated its vaccination playbook to allow for a mix-and-match vaccine regimen. If a second dose of the vaccine a patient originally received isn’t available, or if the manufacturer of the first shot isn’t known, another vaccine may be substituted, health officials said.

The new guidance contradicts guidelines in the United States, where the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has noted that the authorized Covid-19 vaccines “are not interchangeable,” and that “the safety and efficacy of a mixed-product series have not been evaluated. Both doses of the series should be completed with the same product.”

Some scientists say Britain is gambling with its new guidance. “There are no data on this idea whatsoever,” said John Moore, a vaccine expert at Cornell University. Officials in Britain “seem to have abandoned science completely now and are just trying to guess their way out of a mess.”

www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/health/coronavirus-vaccines-britain.html

This seems super risky to me.

[quote CoolKitkat]@Em777 I'm sorry you have experienced this. Some people can genuinely not distinguish 'government-bashing' from scientific scrutiny, and their blind faith will lead them to unhappy times.

I hope you haven't been too offended. I get you, and there are others who do too.

Best wishes.[/quote]
Thank you.

The article in the NY Times is fake news as far as I'm concerned. It misquotes a scientific article that clearly states that mixing vaccines is NOT recommended and tries to assert that it says the opposite. The unlikely occasion where someone administering vaccines to someone who doesn't know what make they had the first time around, is also covered.

Can people stop with the xenophobia?
I'm another UK based immigrant who thinks the current Westminster government is absolutely dreadful. Having lived and paid tax here for decades and being entitled to vote, I can assure you all that I'm entitled to an opinion.

This seems super risky to me.

To me, too, OP.

Demented harpies, shooting the messenger... It's all the rage here today.

I am sorry you've experienced the awful accusations you have on this thread on a perfectly legitimate topic. Just bizarre reactions, really upsetting to read, or to be on the receiving end of.

@CaptainSandy

Can people stop with the xenophobia? I'm another UK based immigrant who thinks the current Westminster government is absolutely dreadful. Having lived and paid tax here for decades and being entitled to vote, I can assure you all that I'm entitled to an opinion.

Anyone is entitled to an opinion but it doesn't mean you're right.

If you look at other countries, Germany for example, their deaths are horrendous.

IT'S FAKE NEWS.

For individuals who started the schedule and who attend for vaccination at a site where the same vaccine is not available, or if the first product received is unknown, it is reasonable to offer one dose of the locally available product to complete the schedule. This
option is preferred if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again. In these circumstances, as both the vaccines are based on the spike protein, it is likely the second dose will help to boost the response to the first dose.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948757/Greenbook_chapter_14a_v4.pdf

[quote MrsPernicious]For individuals who started the schedule and who attend for vaccination at a site where the same vaccine is not available, or if the first product received is unknown, it is reasonable to offer one dose of the locally available product to complete the schedule. This
option is preferred if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again. In these circumstances, as both the vaccines are based on the spike protein, it is likely the second dose will help to boost the response to the first dose.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948757/Greenbook_chapter_14a_v4.pdf[/quote]
I was just about the post that! You just beat me to it.

Previous incomplete vaccination
If the course is interrupted or delayed, it should be resumed using the same vaccine but the first dose should not be repeated. There is no evidence on the interchangeability of the COVID-19 vaccines although studies are underway. Therefore, every effort should be made to determine which vaccine the individual received and to complete with the same vaccine. For individuals who started the schedule and who attend for vaccination at a site where the same vaccine is not available, or if the first product received is unknown, it is reasonable to offer one dose of the locally available product to complete the schedule. This option is preferred if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again. In these circumstances, as both the vaccines are based on the spike protein, it is likely the second dose will help to boost the response to the first dose. For this reason, until additional information becomes available, further doses would not then be required.

Reasonable and likely are being stretched to their extremes in the green paper and this action is not condoned by either vaccine company.

Not fake news, just a bit more reactive crisis management.

Sits uncomfortably with the other news that the vaccine interval can be increased to 3 months (or maybe more later, who knows) without clinical trials.

Patients in the UK consented to receive two Pfizer vaccines with the recommended interval between. The US is not following us in this decision because patients could sue for breach of contract.

@Barksmum12

Seems reasonable to me. It happens with other vaccines.

The advice is always- complete the course with the same vaccine if at all possible. However, it’s safer to boost with a different vaccine, rather than miss that 2nd dose.

It’s crazy to think that someone might get Covid-because they only having one dose, BUT there is copious amounts of vaccine sitting in the local surgery fridge, which they can’t have because it’s the wrong ‘type’ of vaccine.

Interesting that people would rather not have a second dose, rather than have a different vaccine. It wouldn’t bother me.

indeed - wouldn't bother me either,

How many of the people saying they'd refuse a different vaccine would also refuse to take ibroprofen for toothache because they'd already had a paracetamol? Both painkillers, can both do the job, but in different ways and can be used together.

we are now at almost 1 in 25 of the population testing positive.
www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=uk+covid+19+cases&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

2.54m positive cases in a population of 67.88m - that's 3.74% - almost 4 in a 100, ie 1 in 25.

It's clear from just reading MN that there are enough covidiots for this number to keep growing and the odds of my getting it significantly increasing. As I'm clinically vulnerable, understand risk analysis and know people who have died from this or have long covid - I'm very happy to have a second dose of a different vaccine.

@dinglethedragon informed consent is required for clinical trials. If you're happy to do it and the trial has been approved - great.

Unapproved clinical trials are not really a thing to be encouraged at such a large scale. Ethics committees exist for a purpose. Why was there outrage about Russian and Chinese vaccines being tested in an alternative way if this is now acceptable in our country?

Drugs are often used off licence on a small scale, but they get tested properly before going mainstream.

@feelingverylazytoday

They're already planning research into this. It's thought that using 2 different vaccines can lead to greater efficacy than 2 doses of a single one. I wouldn't have any problems with this myself.

Me neither, meh

It's good to hear that there are so many people who aren't fussed about getting different drugs that may induce a different immune response, that hasn't been tested in a clinical study. Very brave. Good luck to you all.

The vaccines don’t stay in your body they prompt your own body to form antibodies. Are you saying the antibodies will be different depending on which vaccine you had?

@BungleandGeorge

The vaccines don’t stay in your body they prompt your own body to form antibodies. Are you saying the antibodies will be different depending on which vaccine you had?

There must be some differences in the immune response. Otherwise in the clinical studies, they would have shown the exact same efficacy. Which they don't.

So what kind of disaster scenario / outcome are you envisaging Coolkitkat?

Sky News reporting PHE views:

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-mixing-coronavirus-vaccines-is-not-recommended-health-agency-warns-12177320

@LimitIsUp

So what kind of disaster scenario / outcome are you envisaging Coolkitkat?

I don't fully understand the question. I think caution should be advised when mixing vaccines, in case there is an adverse response to mixing them.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948338/jcvi-advice-on-priority-groups-for-covid-19-vaccination-30-dec-2020.pdf

All I can find in the above near bottom of page 3 is that switching vaccines for the second dose is not advised as it may affect duration of protection.

Nothing about growing two heads / a third nipple /falling down dead

So yeah, meh

Nobody is disputing that they have a different mechanism and that the different mechanisms have potentially different efficacies in eliciting a response. However I’m struggling to see what problems people are expecting a month or more down the line. Apart from that it could be less efficacious, but if people would rather have no booster they must be worried about something else?

Did you read that whole Sky news article, and what the Consultant virologist said about it being common practice is child vaccinations?

Doesn’t sound like the best idea

It seems to me a very pragmatic response to a crisis situation. It's a last resort option, and they are testing to see if it affects duration of protection. There appears to be no risk of adverse drug reaction or similar

Given the Big Pharma profit motives of the US and their own vaccine, I would give limited credence to news reports from the US on this matter.