If the schools close there should be no pretence that they have switched to "online learning".

[Billie18]

If the schools close they are shut. Schools are not equipped to deliver teaching online. Teachers have not been trained to teach online. Children are not equipped to learn online. The curriculum has not been designed to be taught online. If schools close then children will not be receiving an education. It is dishonest to pretend that they are.

So if the schools close then teachers should be furloughed and children's education should be paused at the point of closure. Closing schools should not be disguised as something it is not. This would allow the damage to continue indefinitely. If schools remain closed for a longer period then teachers should be made redundant so that they are free to do other work. This of course would be terrible and would hopefully not be allowed to happen... But then schools have already not been fully open for nearly a year.

Robotic silence! Wow do find out what happens in other sectors before shooting your mouth off. Hilarious!!

This seems a very odd opinion. Do you really mean that in the ideal school teachers wouldn't speak to or interact live with children?

Pedagogy is a very much debated issue in schools and there are many different methods but the fact is for the past 12 or 13 years, Ofsted have wanted to see less teacher talk and more pupil activity (the idea is that the pupils should be working harder in the classroom than the teacher. A lot of pre-planning of the lessons by the teachers enables this to happen)
Lecture style live teaching, although better than nothing, goes against this and often less progress is made as a result.
The idea of video lessons where pupils pause to them to spend time on their activity at their own pace, more mimics the Ofsted approach, which has been adopted by The Oak National Academy.

I teach in a private secondary school and we did a mixture of live lessons and set tasks from March. Feedback from kids and parents was that where a child had more than 3 live lessons in a day it was too much for them. A lot of our kids preferred pre-recorded videos so that they could pause and rewind when they wanted. So our policy is now that between a quarter and a third of lessons should be video or live, with the rest set tasks. We also mark about half of their work and the rest they self-mark.

That said, if I weren’t bothered about the education and welfare of the kids, I’d a million times rather be furloughed than remote teaching. Online marking takes literally twice as long as regular marking, as does planning (because it is planning from scratch rather than adapting a lesson previously taught). Pastoral check ups are much more time-consuming too because you have to individually contact each child once per week (5-10 mins each), rather than observing their behaviour in form time or around school (zero additional time).

the idea is that the pupils should be working harder in the classroom than the teacher.

That's a good motto!

the idea is that the pupils should be working harder in the classroom than the teacher

Yup. Also, a “busy” classroom isn’t always one where everyone makes progress. Discussion and group based tasks need to have firm boundaries and aims otherwise they are a complete waste of time.

@Attictroll

We had poor online provisions from an outstanding primary- twinkl sheets etc not sure what teachers were doing tbh

Since October half term? If so then ask for their remote learning plan. They have to have one now.

Before then was different and in lockdown 1 there were little expectation set out as the government simply suspended the curriculum.

Were none of the staff being used to cover key worker and vulnerable children supervision? All but 4 of our staff were working full time in classes/bubbles.

No in lockdown 1 from March. My primary stayed open with only 1 case, since September a burst bubble which was a teacher I believe.

@Attictroll

No in lockdown 1 from March. My primary stayed open with only 1 case, since September a burst bubble which was a teacher I believe.

Then at least your child will be more ahead than the thousands of children who had sustained periods of self isolating, many multiple times (my own DD had just over a month off last half term alone).

I’m sorry if I sound flippant but last term was awful for many children (it’s worse when they can’t even leave their home for fresh air and exercise) because so many wanted schools open at any cost.

Equally, it is not necessarily fair to assume the same as lockdown 1, where the guidance from the govt was to suspend the curriculum and that using PDF’s as worksheets wasn’t best practice (they only changed this point in May, in their guidance) to now when legally, since 26th October, schools should have a specific remote learning plan in case of closure. If their plan does not suit your needs, discuss directly with your child’s teacher what would.

Sorry, PDFs was best practice

BustopherPonsonbyJones

“I still can’t understand why those of you who didn’t rate your school’s lockdown provision didn’t a) discuss it with the school during the last six months, using the last term to clarify what they would provide if it happened again or b) move your child to a school where you did approve of the online provision. It really couldn’t have been a shock to find we would be in a precarious position in the Spring Term.”

As others have said - it’s simply not as easy as moving schools. There may not be alternatives. Or the alternatives may be worse. Or parents might perhaps feel it’s worse to add more upheaval to children who are already experiencing enough turmoil.

I think stating that a solution is to move the children is an incredibly poor response; how about the problem is tackled at its root and teachers improve the standard of teaching? Schools are open to educate children and if they are not doing so, action needs to be taken. It’s shocking to suggest that the teachers just be allowed to continue to fail and the parents who can should take their children elsewhere. What about the parents who can’t or those are not inclined to because they are not invested enough? Do we just accept that some schools and teachers are poor and that’s bad luck for those children?

@Dukekaboom
Yes, I would. You choose to keep your child in a school YOU consider (note the emphasis) to be failing, then that’s your decision, I wouldn’t. However, we may also disagree on what we consider unacceptable.

If I did keep my child in a school where I was unhappy with provision - I accept SOME people have no choice- I would have spent the last six months pushing for change. Were you genuinely expecting schools to run as normal with the lack of mitigation? Naive, at best.

@Attictroll

No in lockdown 1 from March. My primary stayed open with only 1 case, since September a burst bubble which was a teacher I believe.

So, you may well see a big difference now the rules have changed. The school must now have a remote learning plan in place which you should be able to access if concerned. Ours was sent out to parents to clarify our remote learning offer after half term.

Unfortunately not all schools have managed to stay open fully since September, so I guess your children have at least benefited from that so far - some of our classes have now had to isolate twice, so a month missed; all have had to isolate once.

Nothing to do with anything school did wrong - just bad luck. You can be doing really well to keep it out UNTIL the day you arent.

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

What does the “Yes I would” refer to please? I asked three questions in my post so am not clear.

Of course I did not expect schools to run as normal in a global pandemic. That is of course impossible. I did however expect schools to do what the rest of both the public and private sector has done and adapt and perform as best they could under the very difficult circumstances. And I don’t consider that all schools have done that.

It’s clear from this thread that many have and have gone above and beyond. Nevertheless in my view, if employees in the private sector had performed as some teachers have done, they would be sacked. So many people have had adapt and learn new ways to do their jobs and teachers are no different.

I also feel that with all public sector services, people who perform poorly should be held to account. Not least because they are paid for by taxes and some people don’t have the means or ability to go elsewhere as you are suggesting. Similarly, if a doctor is not providing adequate care I don’t personally think it’s a good solution to suggest a patient seeks private care or perhaps goes to a different hospital; I think the doctor should be held to account and should improve. And if they don’t improve, disciplinary action should be taken.

I accept that where the teachers are failing, some responsibility falls on the parents to highlight this and push for change as you have said. Whilst not everyone agrees with the OPs solution, it is clear that many posters (such as the OP) are pushing for change by challenging what has been allowed to happen in schools since March and proposing alternatives. The existence of this thread shows that people are pushing for change.

This thread has been incredibly helpful to me in making it clear what should be happening in schools and by highlighting just how woeful some of the teachers in my school have been. This will necessarily enable me to push for more change; as opposed to just moving my child and making them to accept the upheaval and separation from friends etc due to no fault of their own; and allowing the failings by the school and individual teachers to continue unchecked.

I think stating that a solution is to move the children is an incredibly poor response; how about the problem is tackled at its root and teachers improve the standard of teaching? Schools are open to educate children and if they are not doing so, action needs to be taken. It’s shocking to suggest that the teachers just be allowed to continue to fail and the parents who can should take their children elsewhere. What about the parents who can’t or those are not inclined to because they are not invested enough? Do we just accept that some schools and teachers are poor and that’s bad luck for those children?

But did you talk to the school and understand their choices ( difficult to please everyone all of the time and perhaps they were catering for the majority) ) or complain to the school...complaints procedure will be on the website.
Did you contact the trust or LA? I certainly dealt with parental complaints, some via the local MP to the LA.

Often with explanation the vast majority of the small number of complaints were unfounded, were able to be addressed or decisions understood. (Apart from the parental complaint via the MP, about no learning provided by the school at all...logs, diaries, emails proved otherwise...the parent hadn't ensured her child had accessed any of it!)

Nevertheless in my view, if employees in the private sector had performed as some teachers have done, they would be sacked.

I never understand this. Plenty of people who work in the private sector perform badly and are not sacked. The employment board would be very quiet if so!

Equally, teachers and school staff have lost their jobs or been put on competency (a term used in schools).

The problem is that for one person’s bad experience in a school, there will be another who loved it.

It’s why it is difficult to judge a school based on what people on social media ask about it because everyone will have a different opinion.

As always, best to directly ask a school for something that would benefit you at the time and come to a compromise.

Please bear in mind that although teachers are supposed to provide online learning for their students, that much of the time I would go in at 7:30, start prepping for the day, check who was in my lessons, set work for those at home, print out for the day, print out for all the teachers who were absent and had sent work in, deliver their printed work all over the site, then start teaching 6 lessons, with a break duty, half lunch duty and after school revision.

Meanwhile, between my preparation and the lesson itself, some of the students who were isolating would test negative (or have a relative test negative) and be coming in, and half the students who were in would go home. I would end up having set work at home for students who were in school and having half a class missing when I thought I would have a full class.

I am sure I must have missed setting work for some students as it was simply so chaotic. Setting work that is accessible at home is not simply sending home a powerpoint we are covering in class. It requires entirely different material preparing. When half a class went down, they got work. When an odd student was off, they may have been missed. There are only so many hours in the day.

Meanwhile, I would say about 10% of the work I spent hours setting and sourcing to make it actually accessible at home got done.

Honestly, from my perspective, the limitation on home learning is the learning side, not the teaching side. You would think from Mumsnet that there were armies of kids, all desperately waiting for work to be set whilst the lazy teachers let them down, when in fact, my experience, what you actually have is teachers running themselves ragged trying to provide 3 types of lesson at the same time (school, online, home hardcopy) into a void from which very little was ever actually returned.

I haven't RTFT, just eye rolled at OP's thinly veiled excuse for teacher bashing. You do know there is currently a recruitment crisis already in schools, don't you? 40,000 left the profession in 2019 and that is likely to be double after this year, when teachers have been stressed to their limits and denigrated by the likes of you and the right-wing media. Yet you think making teachers redundant while schools are shut is the answer. Pray tell, who will teach our kids when they reopen?

I agree chloe.

Even through lockdown, I've continued with formal performance measures of teachers and head teachers. These are rigorous and time bound.
Redundancy of teachers, teaching assistants and wrap around care staff have also taken place. One school starts back in January without 5 staff due to their deficit budget and the need to make savings.

@Noellodee

Please bear in mind that although teachers are supposed to provide online learning for their students, that much of the time I would go in at 7:30, start prepping for the day, check who was in my lessons, set work for those at home, print out for the day, print out for all the teachers who were absent and had sent work in, deliver their printed work all over the site, then start teaching 6 lessons, with a break duty, half lunch duty and after school revision.

Meanwhile, between my preparation and the lesson itself, some of the students who were isolating would test negative (or have a relative test negative) and be coming in, and half the students who were in would go home. I would end up having set work at home for students who were in school and having half a class missing when I thought I would have a full class.

I am sure I must have missed setting work for some students as it was simply so chaotic. Setting work that is accessible at home is not simply sending home a powerpoint we are covering in class. It requires entirely different material preparing. When half a class went down, they got work. When an odd student was off, they may have been missed. There are only so many hours in the day.

Meanwhile, I would say about 10% of the work I spent hours setting and sourcing to make it actually accessible at home got done.

Honestly, from my perspective, the limitation on home learning is the learning side, not the teaching side. You would think from Mumsnet that there were armies of kids, all desperately waiting for work to be set whilst the lazy teachers let them down, when in fact, my experience, what you actually have is teachers running themselves ragged trying to provide 3 types of lesson at the same time (school, online, home hardcopy) into a void from which very little was ever actually returned.

Fantastic post thank you. So sorry you had to work like this last Term too.

I can hear a bit of panic in your voice. I think the problem is that teachers are just so judged in the jobs they do. And it makes people really afraid to make mistakes.

Most people don't train to do every aspect of their job. It just evolves. You experiment and adapt until it works OK. I used to train online and in person - adults, not children I know. The essential skills are not much different. And there is quite a bit of prep but you can re use.

I thought the White Oak maths program was very good, I thought. The explanations on-demand were really clear. Maybe this is the way forward, some centralised online lessons planned for teachers to take & run with. Not ideal, I know - but better than the nothing you are proposing.

@Noellodee

Please bear in mind that although teachers are supposed to provide online learning for their students, that much of the time I would go in at 7:30, start prepping for the day, check who was in my lessons, set work for those at home, print out for the day, print out for all the teachers who were absent and had sent work in, deliver their printed work all over the site, then start teaching 6 lessons, with a break duty, half lunch duty and after school revision.

Meanwhile, between my preparation and the lesson itself, some of the students who were isolating would test negative (or have a relative test negative) and be coming in, and half the students who were in would go home. I would end up having set work at home for students who were in school and having half a class missing when I thought I would have a full class.

I am sure I must have missed setting work for some students as it was simply so chaotic. Setting work that is accessible at home is not simply sending home a powerpoint we are covering in class. It requires entirely different material preparing. When half a class went down, they got work. When an odd student was off, they may have been missed. There are only so many hours in the day.

Meanwhile, I would say about 10% of the work I spent hours setting and sourcing to make it actually accessible at home got done.

Honestly, from my perspective, the limitation on home learning is the learning side, not the teaching side. You would think from Mumsnet that there were armies of kids, all desperately waiting for work to be set whilst the lazy teachers let them down, when in fact, my experience, what you actually have is teachers running themselves ragged trying to provide 3 types of lesson at the same time (school, online, home hardcopy) into a void from which very little was ever actually returned.

This absolutely! Very many of the parents of children in my class requested hard copies of work. When I asked them in September, lots of those children said they hadn't even seen the packs sent.

I thinknthe general public blame teachers for school board/authority/government failures. Teachers are an easy target because gou can claim to have no say and blame others for not sacking them.

The post I put up about the dreadful funding that we as a society believe our children's educations are worth recieved around 30 posts, why? Because when people can't blame individual schools or teachers they don't care, that they may have a tiny but of responsibility is not something they are willing to acknowledge.

Note the silence when teachers say over and over that they are financing lessons, basic such as equipment, pencils, paper, hand sanitiser. To providing food daily for kids who aren't being fed. The public don't care, they only jump up and down when they feel it puts them out or when they feel they can blame others.

Yes every single childs deserves a wonderful edycation, yes it isn't happening but wake up, it wasn't happening before the pandemic and not because of teachers (there will be bad teachers , teachers who need support etc. and we need to weed them out), but because schools have no money to meet the needs of learners and expectations of parents.

For those who seem to think only live lessons will be of use, you are one family, schools spike to all/most families to find out what would work best/was wanted in their catchment. Our parents so no live lessons, pre recorded and not a full curriculum as it is too much. However providing this takes as much or more time than class based teaching so we are still doing our jobs.

We need cha ge in education and in society. Perhaps teachers will lead it. Perhaps we will stop doingball the things we do that are not in our job description and ask society to pick up the pieces or to fund us adequately.

Picture the scene: you explain a concept. You unmute the students. You ask them for their ideas... there is silence. In despair, you call on a student. They turn their camera off/mute themselves/log off. You ask that the "big" task is submitted in assignments at the end of the lesson. It is not.

This was the reality of live teaching my Y12 class at the end of term. I've marked and sent back the work that was submitted, for the students who attended. 2/3rds of them.

I am just banging my head against the desk at the idea that online learning is about a teacher talking to a class full of students.

There are so many ways to deliver.

But as many have said, it is not actually the teachgin side which is a problem.
There are kids trying to access on a small phone, kids who miss half the lessons as they share with their brother. Kids who live in villages who don't have enough wifi (common round here, we aren't in the wilds these are kids within spitting distance of the M4, between London and Bristol, I don't think gov really has any idea how poor village wifi often is) Kids who are trying to do it, but have a toddler screaming/climbing on them etc, kids who refuse to get up as it is 'not school' and that doesn't even start on the fact that unless parent is up, able, free, not working, not child minder a sibling, and able to understand the work set, the likelihood of that child doing it is slim.

BUT for most kids, online learnign does dliver something. I have 2 kids in exam years, and they are serious about accessing their curriculum, the exams are looming and they want to do well. even if only for those kids, we must continue to provide learning, real or online, and not close schools down.

@Dukekaboom

In answer to your questions:
1) how about the problem is tackled at its root and teachers improve the standard of teaching?
Who decides the standard of teaching wasn’t good enough? Remember the government suspended the curriculum. Some people will be happy with the provision (for example, some people want live lessons whilst others prefer a pack of worksheets, suggested tasks or recorded lessons ) therefore, it is up to you to state what you want and discuss it, bearing in mind your way won’t suit everyone. Talk to the school, talk to OFSTED. Ultimately, school management will make decisions not individual teachers.

2)What about the parents who can’t or those are not inclined to because they are not invested enough?
There are always parents who can’t, or aren’t inclined, to invest in their child’s education. They will be disadvantaged. Nothing has changed in that respect (sadly). I guess those children will have to be invited into school to join key worker provision. I hope that parents of the non-disadvantaged children accept this as there have been some very unkind comments on this policy.

3) Do we just accept that some schools and teachers are poor and that’s bad luck for those children?
I refer you back to my first answer. Who decides if they are poor or good? What suits one family doesn’t suit another. Then I will refer you to my previous post. If you aren’t happy, either move (if you can) or be proactive and discuss the situation with the school. If you don’t, you are accepting your situation. You say you will discuss this with your school (which is great) but you should have done this in September. You may even find the situation has already changed.