Personal responsibility

[Jourdain11]

It seems like some people are desperate to be locked down, while others are desperate to be let out. Some people want there to be more rules, others don't care how many rules there are because they will break them all anyway.

The way it seems to me, a mandatory lockdown of any severity just isn't going to work any more. Everyone can always argue that it's not right that you can do one thing but not the other... there's no point while schools are open... or that keeping schools open is the only important thing and everything else should be sacrificed in order to do so. Christmas is a case in point: a load of additional restrictions put in place, but how many people went ahead with their plans anyway?

Those who don't give a damn will continue not to give a damn: if they can't meet up in a pub, they'll meet up in someone's home, and 9/10 times they'll get away with it.

And then there's the crucial point that, in order to bring about another "total lockdown", the government would have to actually get it past parliament. And that is by no means certain.

So isn't it time to simply ask people to be responsible, respectful and adult? Leave in place some restrictions about long distance travel and numbers of people who can meet up, perhaps, but otherwise simply put the responsibility onto each individual in the form of guidance.

If you work or live or come into contact with vulnerable people, it is wise to be more cautious. If you're a student and the people you're most likely to come into close and prolonged contact with are other non-vulnerable students, you can live a bit more freely. If you feel that you are vulnerable or need to protect yourself more, you should be permitted to wear PPE and distance at work, no matter what your profession. If you are clinically vulnerable, you should be certified as such and shielding and/or work from home or furlough should be facilitated.

Treat people like adults, and they might just start to behave like adults too!

I 100% agree and it's how DH and I have tried to live since this whole shitshow began.

Unfortunately though there are too many people who don't give a flying fuck and simply can't behave responsibly - I don't know how the government are supposed to deal with that.

There's a reason the Uk has some of the highest rates in the world - people's behaviour/attitude.

@Jourdain11 I might have agreed with you in the summer when cases were lower, but now some hospitals are at the point of being overwhelmed and we need as much capacity as possible to be able to roll out the vaccine as quickly as it can be done.

The time to let people take personal responsibility is when the vaccine has been delivered to the elderly and vulnerable. At that point we must surely be allowed to start making our own decisions, because it does at that stage become a nasty but generally not fatal virus.

So isn't it time to simply ask people to be responsible, respectful and adult?

Nice idea but not practical as one persons idea of what is responsible is another's wanton disregard for the situation.

Lovely, frilly idea but not practical in the real world.

So essentially you’re proposing far fewer rules?

But the people disregarding the situation are actually doing that anyway - Christmas case and point!

But the people disregarding the situation are actually doing that anyway - Christmas case and point!

@Dozer

So essentially you’re proposing far fewer rules?

Pretty much!

There will be people who disregard the rules, but the majority of us follow them. We were due to travel down from Scotland to see relatives in England for Christmas, but as the rules changed we didn't.

It's too late for this conversation, just let the vaccine do it's work and hope this phase will be over soon.

@hopeishere

So isn't it time to simply ask people to be responsible, respectful and adult?

Nice idea but not practical as one persons idea of what is responsible is another's wanton disregard for the situation.

We are already being asked to do that. Check out Matt Hancock’s leech in the commons a couple of weeks ago. He said it was all down to our personal responsibility to stop the spread of this virus.

Not going so well so far, is it?

Speech. Not leech!

Treat people like adults, and they might just start to behave like adults too!

I would love it if this were true of everyone but it really isn't as evidenced by people ignoring guidance on gatherings even in the face of rapidly rising case numbers and more crucially hospital admissions.

100%.

My daughter has a 1-1 and requires close contact throughout the entire school day. Due to that I deliberately effectively live in lockdown and keep her as low risk as I physically can in order to help protect her 1-1. It is the considerate and responsible thing to do.

Luckily her additional needs means she's more than happy living a low key life

It’s not always easy to tell who is vulnerable within a workplace or university environment. Even age isn’t always apparent.
This theory only works when you know the medical history of everyone you come into contact with - an argument for less mixing.

People are notoriously bad at estimating risk, especially other people’s, even when sober. Darwin’s law will help to an extent, of course; those who don’t behave and their contacts are most at risk.

Once the vaccine is rolled out and beds are available at a normal level (routine treatments at usual wait) then sure, release restrictions and let people take their own risks. I believe that’s the plan.

People aren't taking personal responsibility though are they?

Not all, not even the majority. But the minority. And it's the minority requiring the big restrictions to be enshrined in law and attached to fines.

We have a no meeting indoors rule/law.

But only yesterday I read about a party in Manchester for 100 people.
That's not a small amount breaking the law.

If that law didn't exist how many other people would think they would have large gatherings because there's no deterrent?

Our hospitals aren't coping now - with restrictions.

I know what you mean, but the problem with it (which has always been the case) is that it's not the issue of whether YOU get it, rather who you spread it to.

You can decide you don't mind taking the risk, but you could then go to the shops and spread it to several vulnerable people who very much didn't want any additional risk.

It's quite a selfish view really.

It won’t work because it’s more complicated than that. Someone who is low risk may decide to socialize. They pick it up and get sick, and are fine, but in the meantime they’ve infected me because we work together, I’ve taken it home and given it to DP who is vulnerable. He goes to hospital, taking up a bed. A member of staff catches it from him, now she has to stay home and they are a person short. She gives it to her mother who lives with her, who dies. And that doesn’t even take account of exponential growth.

The other issue is that if you just let it rip through society we will have a lot of people ultimately with long Covid. This is the big problem for me - we know this is a weird virus that does odd things to the body. While people may mostly not get very sick, we can’t have a significant proportion of the population being chronically ill when that was avoidable and we don’t know long term what the effects on them may be. The neurological dimension of it troubles me.

Plus I think they would not be doing what you propose and managing their risk appropriately. Just as people bend the rules now, if you let them make their own choices they would be inclined to make bad ones with no curbs in place. The time for asking people to be responsible was in March. Now we don’t have good options apart from tough restrictions, as far as I can see.

The problem is that if I want to carry on with social distancing as I feel safer but then I go to the supermarket and 40% of the people there have decided not to give a fuck anymore, my right to social distance has essentially been taken out of my hands and we are back to people breathing on the back of my neck (something I haven’t missed during COVID)

Nice idea, but another important thing to consider is those people who don't care about protecting others and who might try to impose their will on others - the rules and lockdowns protect people from those who could abuse their power, e.g. unscrupulous employers who threaten to sack workers if they don't do as they say.

I'd agree if it was a perfect world. I am ECV and I am continuing to shield as far as I can with DC in school and dh in work. But many people won't take personal responsibility seriously (eg in the case of the skiers in Switzerland). And then when the NHS gets overwhelmed, weighing our own risks would simply overload further given that many don't see a risk for themselves and carry on regardless. I think that when the vaccine is rolled out then things will relax eventually but at present I can't see any way through but to keep measures going and take them further. It's awful but it is what it is.

And this is what is happening, out there in the real world.

twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1343652707937243137?s=19

@wowfudge

Nice idea, but another important thing to consider is those people who don't care about protecting others and who might try to impose their will on others - the rules and lockdowns protect people from those who could abuse their power, e.g. unscrupulous employers who threaten to sack workers if they don't do as they say.

Employers are doing that anyway.

There was an outbreak of Covid at my friend's workplace and their boss said - keep quiet. They were all expected to still come in - and it's a business where they have close contact with clients.

In the case of people who don't social distance, or people who go to huge parties - it is kind of my point, that this sort of thing goes on with restrictions in place!

And I'm perfectly aware of "the real world", thanks, I can read Twitter as well as anyone else and I've only seen that linked about 20 times. There are other issues in the "real world" too, though.

Are there any other laws you think we should get rid of because some people break them?

I'm not naive enough to think that doesn't go on anyway @Jourdain11 but at least there is some protection with the govt taking action.

There will always be law breakers though @Jourdain11 . The vast majority of the British public has abided by the rules, often to vast personal disappointment.

If we had been allowed to travel to England over Christmas we would have done so regardless of the numbers ,it would have been a great personal boost to us and would have improved a pretty rubbish year for DS14. But we didn't because we aren't law breakers and more selfishly neither of us needs a criminal record for our jobs.