Will the vaccinated 'oldies' become the new superspreaders?

[OnlyTeaForMe]

So, if people who have been vaccinated can still catch and pass on the virus (but not get so ill with it themselves) isn't there a chance that the active 75+ group will become the new superspreaders once they've been vaccinated?

I know several people in this age group who intend to get out there and live life to the full once they've been vaccinated, and I sense that people don't really understand that they still need to wear masks and social distance.

If they all start visiting family and friends and shopping and drop their guard, then surely they will begin to put the non-vaccinated at risk?

@Mousehole10 I don’t blame you at all for thinking this way

We’re still following all the rules (tier 4) but that’s because it’s easy for us. Me and DH wfh, we have a nice house, our children are at school (for now!). We have an online delivery slot. We have lots of lovely walks on our doorstep. We’re busy with young children, cleaning etc, so we don’t need to go out and see people for exercise. We have everything we need.

But if I had teens, was at a different stage in life, we worked outside the home, or had a live-out partner, I would probably be re-thinking following the rules right now.

It’s easy for me. I have a stable job and home life. I’m privileged and wouldn’t judge others who feel they can no longer follow the rules.

I wish people would stop saying 'the oldies'. It's a horrible way to describe people and absolutely meaningless as it doesn't even give a hint on how old you gave to be to fit into this ridiculous category. All the old people I know in my area are definitely working to the rules and I don't know a single one who is planning a trip abroad. My mil is 92, in sheltered accommodation and hasn't left her flat since this started. It's a vile insult to people like her to throw about slurs that she doesn't care about the younger generation. Even sadder is that she can't have the vaccine so may never leave her four walls again. Just stop this nasty attitude - there are many old people like her who are doing their best to keep safe themselves and to keep us safe.

@ginginchinchin I’m talking about people I know who qualify for early vaccines. So the over 60s Up to late 70s. Certainly not that old these days. But the older generation.

You’re talking about frail and elderly at 92, the most vulnerable group who will have less mobility.

I think we’re talking about two different groups here- those in active retirement and the frail and elderly.

It’s certainly true for my wide circle of active retirees. I don’t know anyone living in care homes as my grandparents died relatively young. I can only speak from my perspective and share my own experiences.

Also my oldies refer to themselves as ‘the oldies’ in a warm, light hearted way. It’s a term of endearment in my circle.

but what about the under 75’s who are vulnerable? goodness knows how long it’s all going to take to vaccinate us all

@XmasSkies2020 then you mean my age group. I'm 62, still working and also not planning bus or plane trips anywhere. I shop late at night to minimise contact. I still say oldies is a generalisation. It's like me saying all students are displaying non confirming risky behaviour. In my family my student grandson decided to do his first year uni course from home, because he wants to ensure we and his other grandparents are as safe as possible. I see plenty of risk taking across all generations, not just SOME over 60s.

@XmasSkies2020 it's a term of endearment within my family too. However I wouldn't expect them to simply group together everyone above a numeric cut off point and paint them all as reckless morons, which is exactly how this horrible thread is turning out.

So its back to the old herd immunity plan, but this time with the added tweak of not killing grandma?

Meh, the government never cared if younger healthy people caught covid. Its only ever been about getting those death numbers down and stopping the NHS collapsing. Once that's not happening, perhaps you need to accept the risk that you're going to catch covid will go up, but the risk you will be seriously ill with covid will remain low. If you live in an area with lots of covid cases, you might have had it asymptomatically already.

I’m 67, with a fairly common and usually well controlled and unserious heart condition (though otherwise fit and healthy) and work in education. However the heart condition makes me clinically vulnerable to Covid.
The only risk I take is the one mandated by my workplace which allows no meaningful social distancing and no obligatory mask wearing in the classroom.
Not all over 65s are retired and able to control their exposure to risk.

Agree because vaccinations will lull people into a false sense of security and hygiene will lapse!

This is all based on the wrong idea that not having the evidence means the reverse must be true and not understanding that vaccinated is not synonymous with asymptomatic.

It is very, very likely that vaccinated people won't spread it - like every other infectious disease and every other mammalian coronavirus. They can't say for sure until people are vaccinated and exposed though, so use cautious language until they are sure.

Unfortunately scientists and their cautious, but accurate, language is being heard by people used to politics, headlines and social media.

I think it would be very selfish for the already vaccinated to just go out and enjoy life (amd potentially spread Covid) while those not yet eligible continue living under massive restrictions. I'm youngish with no underlying health conditions, so the chances of me getting seriously ill from Covid have always been slim; yet I've not been going around doing what I want because it would be unfair on more vulnerable members of society. I expect the same consideration of others by people who have had the vaccine.

@mommybunny

I may be missing the point of the thread, but does anyone know of an example of a vaccine that prevents serious illness but does not prevent transmission?

Flu jab? Ever year I catch flu and can spread it, the jab just prevents me/people from getting the flu really bad! You can still catch it and spread it!

@ginginchinchin

I wish people would stop saying 'the oldies'. It's a horrible way to describe people and absolutely meaningless as it doesn't even give a hint on how old you gave to be to fit into this ridiculous category. All the old people I know in my area are definitely working to the rules and I don't know a single one who is planning a trip abroad. My mil is 92, in sheltered accommodation and hasn't left her flat since this started. It's a vile insult to people like her to throw about slurs that she doesn't care about the younger generation. Even sadder is that she can't have the vaccine so may never leave her four walls again. Just stop this nasty attitude - there are many old people like her who are doing their best to keep safe themselves and to keep us safe.

I agree with you @ginginchinchin, I cannot understand how this can be allowed on here.

Masquerading these vile ageist sentiments, based on absolutely no facts, as a "discussion thread" is offensive, divisive and not in the least bit constructive.

@FeelingBIue

The most worrying thing is what that poster has said could be absolute made up bollox, lies peddled without any proof or evidence. And people can get taken in by it, as fact.

Does the vaccine even work against the new strain? Although according to the BBC article I just read, there's actually at least 3 strains. Love the fact I and others got called an idiot by someone on here at the beginning of the year for saying covid might mutate and we'll never get rid of it. Oh who was right now? Of course it was going to mutate, it's a fucking virus, it's what they do. I doubt the government has any idea how many strains there actually are.

@Feelingblue I'm stating what my experiences have been. I work with the public, old and young everyday in life. It has been the elderly who have ignored the rules and don't care who know it. If you read my post it states that I asked him was he not afraid of spreading Or catching it from other family. He wasn't bothered. His family asked if he still wanted them round, he could have said no. He was quite happy for them all to come in and out. I work with a large number of elderly, none of them bothered about the virus. In contrast, the younger families, and middle aged I work with have not been mixing and appreciate that their actions affect others.

Ageist? No, just stating what I see and am told to my face every single day.

@daisychain01 I'm not peddling any lies. My job involves being in others homes on a daily basis. I'm a service provider running a business. I've had bloody covid. I have no reason to lie and am a genuine person. It has really really shocked me, the attitudes I have come across to this virus. I'm stating what I have seen and been told. I could tell loads more, and all involve the elderly but what's the point.

Am I being a bit slow? Since March I would estimate that every day on here someone (usually supported by a number of others) has posted that restrictions should be abandoned and the virus should be allowed to run its course - “let it rip” being a popular expression. So now we’ve got the opportunity to let that happen without a lot of old people dying, suddenly people aren’t happy about that at all either.

The trouble is that this could apply to either the old or the young - students and teenagers have been treated so badly throughout this, expected to give up so much to protect others and then still blamed and criticised for not being responsible or compliant enough. There's already so much intergenerational tension in the UK, I honestly think the social fabric might struggle to hold up if we end up in a situation where the older you are the quicker you get released from coronavirus restrictions that were introduced to protect you which is what saying the vaccinated don't have to follow them would largely mean.

This, I've been Locked up for months, had my life curtailed, lost so much, and been blamed for a spike, to protect everyone but me. If the logic is those barely at risk (and I'm talking under 30's, because we've all heard the heartbreaking stories about 40 and 50 year olds dying of covid) can keep going with their life why have I been locking up for so long? Especially whilst living in student accommodation with only other people the same age and risk factor as me. Why is it one rule for them and one rule for us? We've all been told that no matter whether the people were around are low risk we could be part of a chain that kills someone so have to lock up to be careful, why don't they?

The inter generational resentment is already bubbling and will be absolutely massive.

@MrsFezziwig

Am I being a bit slow? Since March I would estimate that every day on here someone (usually supported by a number of others) has posted that restrictions should be abandoned and the virus should be allowed to run its course - “let it rip” being a popular expression. So now we’ve got the opportunity to let that happen without a lot of old people dying, suddenly people aren’t happy about that at all either.

a) Yes people have said that. They've always been massively in the minority - there's one of those threads running now and there are hundreds of posts telling the OP how stupid and callous an idea it is. b) For me the period of concern here isn't once all the vulnerable are vaccinated, it's the period, likely to be a good few months, where some are and some aren't. If vaccinated over 70s stop following the law because they feel personally safe then if case numbers rise significantly, whether it's as a result of them transmitting it or (which seems more likely to me) because this causes a general collapse in compliance, the end result is that groups like the at-risk under 65s, or 60-65 year olds, who are a lot lower down the vaccination list, will be at significantly increased risk.

[quote Tootsey11]@Feelingblue I'm stating what my experiences have been. I work with the public, old and young everyday in life. It has been the elderly who have ignored the rules and don't care who know it. If you read my post it states that I asked him was he not afraid of spreading Or catching it from other family. He wasn't bothered. His family asked if he still wanted them round, he could have said no. He was quite happy for them all to come in and out. I work with a large number of elderly, none of them bothered about the virus. In contrast, the younger families, and middle aged I work with have not been mixing and appreciate that their actions affect others.

Ageist? No, just stating what I see and am told to my face every single day.[/quote]
I did read your post, thank you, I found it ageist and your new post reinforces my opinion.

According to you younger families and middle aged have not been mixing and appreciate that their actions affect others.

How would you describe those 7 adult children and their families. Are they not younger families mixing? Are the 7 adult children not middle aged? Mixing with their elderly relative? Mixing with each other? Mixing with other people in the shopping queues, at the post office? Do they not appreciate that their mixing and their actions affect others?

Not according to you. Only the happy old person is at fault. Only the old person will be in the super spreader category.

Ageism in full flow by your own example.

@mommybunny

I may be missing the point of the thread, but does anyone know of an example of a vaccine that prevents serious illness but does not prevent transmission?

Polio. The inactivated polio vaccine prevents the vaccinated individual from contracting it, but does nothing to stop polio from multiplying in the gut and being transmitted.

Fortunately we have a second polio vaccine (an attenuated live vaccine) which does prevent transmission, although does have other downsides.

polioeradication.org/polio-today/polio-prevention/the-vaccines/

The possibility is that the covid vaccine could give immunity in the lungs, whilst still allowing the virus to multiply - and thus spread - in the nose. Do I think this likely? No. Do we have the evidence? No.