Page 2 | Rules for vaccinated?

alreadytaken · 26/12/2020 20:38

If the grandparents are happy to take the much smaller risk of becoming ill post vaccination and you are willing to take the risk that they might transmit it to you - why not?

For what it's worth if I was the grandmother I absolutely would be seeing you - but I might still wear a mask near your child. I'm very aware that flu is more dangerous to children and that mask wearing and greater attention to hand washing have more or less done away with flu seasons in several places.

Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 20:41

@MummaBear4321

But .... myself and DH are in a very low risk group (we are 30, no health conditions), I dont work as I am on mat leave, he works outside alone, and with his GPs having the vaccine their risk becomes incredibly low, and they dont work and wont be going many places as everything is closed, so .... wouldnt the risk of us seeing each other be minuscule? They have a minimal chance of being sick from the virus, and we have a minimal chance of getting it from them and even if we do, we have a 99% chance of being perfectly fine.

Sorry, but I am struggling to see where the major risk lies. How donwe justify not seeing her if she wants to see us?

You justify it the same way all the rest of us have had to justify not seeing our low risk relatives for months. It’s against the rules, illegal.

Original poster

MummaBear4321 · 26/12/2020 20:42

I think we will be seeing her if she is ok with it. The woman lives for her family. She says the only joy she has now is the videos we send her of our kids. She checks her messages every night to see if there is a new one. She doesnt want to have a dinner in a restaurant or go shopping. She wants to see her grandson and her great granddaughters. That's all she cares about.

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arevioletsreallyblue · 26/12/2020 20:43

If you can justify it to yourself I'd say go against the roolz and just do it.

However they can't introduce different rules for the vaccinated/unvaccinated for multiple reasons.

There's a lack of evidence at present of whether the vaccine actually prevents transmission.

Can you imagine the mutiny from young people/the not vulnerable if the old/vulnerable, who they've been locking themselves away for months to protect, are the first one allowed to go out and resume their lives whilst the rest of us all stay locked up, because they were prioritised for a vaccine = freedom that the rest of us haven't even been given the chance to get yet. And yes I'm aware that this has been to protect the NHS but the 'don't kill granny' narrative has been pushed so much that if 'granny' is suddenly safe they're not going to get compliance from anyone else because they see themselves as 'safe' too.

Hardbackwriter · 26/12/2020 20:44

@MummaBear4321

But .... myself and DH are in a very low risk group (we are 30, no health conditions), I dont work as I am on mat leave, he works outside alone, and with his GPs having the vaccine their risk becomes incredibly low, and they dont work and wont be going many places as everything is closed, so .... wouldnt the risk of us seeing each other be minuscule? They have a minimal chance of being sick from the virus, and we have a minimal chance of getting it from them and even if we do, we have a 99% chance of being perfectly fine.

Sorry, but I am struggling to see where the major risk lies. How donwe justify not seeing her if she wants to see us?

I would feel exactly the same way, but by that logic why aren't I allowed to see my best friend or my brother - we're in exactly the same position except we're naturally at low risk of death from Covid, due to age and our health, rather than low risk through vaccination? Aren't we all supposed to be doing this to altruistically limit the risk to all old and vulnerable people, rather than to the specific ones we know? And isn't that why we're not supposed to be making 'but the actual risk would be very low' calculations on our own behalf?

Covidrelapse · 26/12/2020 20:53

My GP’s are soon to be vaccinated. There is no way on earth they won’t be returning to a more normal life. They’re waiting 2 weeks after their second vaccine then they’ll be off shopping on the bus. They’ll carry on wearing masks, hand washing and social distancing of course. But they’ve missed their independence. And if they want us to visit when legally allowed I’m not denying them that. They’re 90 so I’m not wasting any of their time.

Nacreous · 26/12/2020 20:54

I think the idea will be that people who haven't been "maxing out" the rules because they are vulnerable will be able to see people again, and that then once a good chunk of the vulnerable population has been vaccinated (say by mid Feb) then you mightn't need tier 4 any more. Then once another chunk is vaccinated, maybe you don't need tier 3 and more and so on, til we're all down to tier 1 and then tiering goes.

So it's not necessarily a change to your personal world, unless you were doing less than the rules allowed, but it's a contribution to the rules being able to change for everyone soon.

That's my expectation anyway!

Nacreous · 26/12/2020 20:56

So to give an example say - my granny hasn't been to a garden centre or even a supermarket since March - she might be quite pleased to do that or for my mum to take her out for a wheel along the seafront in her wheelchair. All things allowed within the rules (well not the garden centre in T4!) but not stuff she's prepared to do currently.

Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 20:57

@MummaBear4321

I think we will be seeing her if she is ok with it. The woman lives for her family. She says the only joy she has now is the videos we send her of our kids. She checks her messages every night to see if there is a new one. She doesnt want to have a dinner in a restaurant or go shopping. She wants to see her grandson and her great granddaughters. That's all she cares about.

We all live for family. Do you think it’s ok for me to see my family too? All low risk and not particularly old. If so then great, let’s scrap the rules and allow everyone to see low risk family?

Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 20:59

Seriously why have I not been seeing my family for months if those I’ve been apparently trying to protect are now going to go straight out before the rest of the vulnerable have been vaccinated and spread it anyway? I may as well have not bothered. I hope you don’t have school/nursery children as you’ll be putting their teachers and other families at risk.

Hardbackwriter · 26/12/2020 21:00

@Nacreous that's my understanding too, but I don't think it's the general expectation - I've seen so many threads like this one and comments along the lines of 'grandma has been vaccinated so only a few weeks until I can hug her!'. I think a lot of people do think the vaccinated will be entirely exempt from the current restrictions. It is made a bit trickier by the fact that the people currently being vaccinated, the very elderly, aren't a group who are likely to be able to use all the limited freedoms currently in place - only being able to see people outside in the middle of winter is a bit shit for everyone, but isn't going to be viable for a lot of 90 year olds so in effect they still couldn't see anyone.

sirfredfredgeorge · 26/12/2020 21:00

No of course not, just like people who've just had it get any freedom, it is completely inequitable and creates false incentives to get vaccinated, and riskier behaviour when it is not 100% effective.

However, individuals who have been doing more than legally required in terms of isolation should very much get out and do what is legally allowed, it is very, very difficult to maintain physical and mental health whilst isolating yourself, so getting out and doing more "normal" things should be encouraged when their risk of covid has lowered, then they need to reduce their risk of other things.

Original poster

MummaBear4321 · 26/12/2020 21:03

@Mouse so I say no to her because you wont see your family? Should people in tier 3 not see people for a walk because people in tier 4 cant? Should those in support bubbles stop them because those who cant have support bubbles miss their family?

I am not sure I buy this 'we are all in this together/its not fair' thing. Surely common sense has to start being used at some point? Not everyone is in the same situation, and I am not sure I can ignore logic to that extent. Some have higher risks than others (using public transport, kids in school etc).

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Original poster

MummaBear4321 · 26/12/2020 21:07

Also, under tier rules I could meet her outside anyway, so no breaking of any 'roolz'

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Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 21:09

[quote MummaBear4321]@Mouse so I say no to her because you wont see your family? Should people in tier 3 not see people for a walk because people in tier 4 cant? Should those in support bubbles stop them because those who cant have support bubbles miss their family?

I am not sure I buy this 'we are all in this together/its not fair' thing. Surely common sense has to start being used at some point? Not everyone is in the same situation, and I am not sure I can ignore logic to that extent. Some have higher risks than others (using public transport, kids in school etc). [/quote]
No, you say no to her because it’s not allowed. She needs to follow the tier rules, of course if the rules allow you can see her. My point is that I have given up seeing my low risk family because it’s not allowed, apparently to protect people like your high risk family. If you then go see her against the rules, you are putting that risk into other people who have not yet been vaccinated and that’s not fair. You need to wait until the rules allow so that others continue to be protected like your mother has been. It’s pretty selfish of you to do otherwise.

Littleyell · 26/12/2020 21:09

@PurpleDaisies

Those who've been vaccinated can still spread the virus

That’s not quite right-we just don’t know that the vaccines reduce transmission for certain yet although we think they will.

Same thing.

Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 21:10

@MummaBear4321

Also, under tier rules I could meet her outside anyway, so no breaking of any 'roolz'

If you meet her outside if the rules allow then that’s fine obviously!

Hardbackwriter · 26/12/2020 21:11

@MummaBear4321

Also, under tier rules I could meet her outside anyway, so no breaking of any 'roolz'

If that's all you're going to do then of course you can - you can do this anyway, you've just decided it isn't sensible to. Your thread came across as if you thought they wouldn't have to follow social distancing/rules on size of gathering/rules on meeting indoors. As you say, they'll be able to do anything anyone else in their tier is legally able to do, but no more.

Original poster

MummaBear4321 · 26/12/2020 21:20

Originally my thought process was more about what the vaccinated can do; could they fly, could they see family members indoors etc as they were suddenly very low risk. I suppose I have been taking the rules as I cant see DHs GPs as they are very vulnerable so I hadn't made the jump to the idea that I could meet them outdoors under the rules. Since march they have just been locked away.

I do think there is going to be a big issue that many vaccinated people will now not be prepared to not see their family indoors (for example) for the 'greater good'. I think people are reaching the end of their tolerance for the greater good, and who can blame them after being under house arrest for 9 months. I think there will be a change in the actions of older people, which will make us younger people angry about why we are still following rules.

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middleager · 26/12/2020 21:24

Those who've had Covid have not been subject to any different rules. Two weeks after finishing his isolation from Covid, my son was placed in another SI from school, as a contact. Then again two weeks later when yet another case hit school.

My FIL, 84, has had his first dose of the vaccine and is already talking about going abroad after his second dose!

Both are extreme (but real) examples, and I'd like some more clarity on what the situation is, wrt transmitting the virus, because the local public health advisor told me in November that as they don't know enough about the virus, then my son would not be exempt from isolation as a contact. Will this be the case for the vaccinated? Special rules cannot be implemented or I agree this will cause division and non compliance.

PuzzledObserver · 26/12/2020 21:25

@alreadytaken

We have been following not the rules but the science - so generally doing less than we are permitted to do. Once vaccinated I intend to do everything that is permitted. So we'll eat out when allowed, instead of getting takeaways, travel if we are allowed and go in non-essential shops when open.

We'll still wear masks to protect others, as we've been doing since it was encouraged and before it became compulsory. I dislike masks but I wont risk discarding them until we know about transmission risks.

Same here. I have been well within what the rules allowed, especially over the summer when everyone else was doing Eat Out to Help Out. Haven’t had a meal out since February.

Once vaccinated, I will be doing things I was allowed to do but chose not to.

Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 21:27

@MummaBear4321 I agree with you, is low risk will be very annoyed at vaccinated people not following the rules and potentially making things worse, when we have been following the rules all this time for the greater good and not because of our personal risk. The second people start doing this is the second that I stop following the rules too. Why bother when the vulnerable aren’t willing to follow the rules to protect others who are vulnerable, when millions of us have been following it to protect them?

Mousehole10 · 26/12/2020 21:28

@PuzzledObserver that’s great you will be doing what’s allowed within the rules. Lovely that you will get a bit more freedom!

Iliketeaagain · 26/12/2020 22:17

@MummaBear4321

DH has just been speaking to his GPs who both have had the first dose of covid vaccine and will be fully vaccinated in 3 weeks time. They have completely isolated from everyone and everything since March. We said 'it will be amazing for you to have your freedom again' and he said that he wasnt sure he would have freedom as he has seen no mention of those who are vaccinated being able to see family.

Does anyone know will the vaccinated be able to mix in the world again, move between tiers, take flights, see low risk family members? The thought that after all the waiting, they would still not be able to go anywhere or see anyone, I felt so bad for them. Has there been anything from the government about this?

I bloody well hope not. Me and DH are both in the lowest priority group, although I may well get it via my employer but will be lower priority there too because I can avoid face to face care (rightly so).

I will be seriously pissed off if I'm limited where I go / who I see because we're one of the last to get vaccinated, and all the people who we have locked down to protect can have their freedom / travel / see their families because they were vaccinated first while the rest of us are still restricted because we haven't managed to get to the top of the vaccination priority list yet. I haven't seen my family for more than a year, DH nearly the same length of time. Our parents aren't in the ECV category either, so not particularly high on the vaccination priority list although higher than both of us.

And I don't think I'm the only one - I think the rules would go out the window for most if some sort of "freedom for vaccination" rule happened.

It's good that people will be able to stop shielding but you cannot limit people's freedom based on whether you have had a vaccine which you might not even be entitled to have yet.

I think (hope) it's a moot point anyway - it would be mutiny in the UK if the government introduced that guideline!

110APiccadilly · 26/12/2020 22:22

"Originally my thought process was more about what the vaccinated can do; could they fly, "

In my defence, I have a young baby, so I'm fairly sleep deprived, but I did think for a moment there that you were talking about super powers.