If next Christmas is like this one will you still be following rules?

[elleps]

Miserable pessimistic post alert. Feel free to hide the thread!

Just wondering who would carry on with following on with these rules if we are in the same boat next year?

I can completely see things staying like this for many months to come. People will say otherwise, that there’s a vaccine and that things are going the right way. But then nobody thought in March that we would be sat like this on Christmas Day. So I don’t hold out much hope.

Things can’t carry on like this beyond March surely, even if the virus is still spreading as it is?

Lots of cars on my street this morning that were there yesterday, I've never seen them before. Lots of ppl staying over Christmas night

@Burnthurst187

Lots of cars on my street this morning that were there yesterday, I've never seen them before. Lots of ppl staying over Christmas night

Christ, can you hear yourself? Get your nose back through from your net curtains and mind your own business. I think the normalisation of this sort of petty curtain twitching is so fucking depressing.

@Burnthurst187

Lots of cars on my street this morning that were there yesterday, I've never seen them before. Lots of ppl staying over Christmas night

Far safer to stay overnight if you have had a drink. I know people could choose not to drink, but it's Christmas. I find the idea of all those low range drink drivers who would have been on the roads last night far more concerning.

@eeeyulesmiles

But we would also have to make our peace with the fact that if the virus was still spreading, doctors and nurses would eventually have to start making some very difficult decisions about who not to treat as hospitals would be at capacity. People would be turned away. And I’m sure there would be uproar when this happened and that might then make people more likely to stay away from family etc because you’d be risking them catching it and then not being treated.

The trouble is that if this happens (battlefield triage and doctors and nurses having to make quick and brutal decisions about who gets treatment), it won't just be covid patients being turned away - it could be patients with any condition. People who've been in car accidents who could survive but who won't pass the triage, people with symptoms that might be a heart attack or stroke but who won't get an ambulance or the close attention they need, pregnant women who need a surgeon to do a c section and so on. The NHS being overwhelmed doesn't just mean a few fewer people survive covid - it could mean hospitals having to shut their doors to all sorts of patients.

To stop that happening people would need to be motivated to avoid spreading covid full stop, not just to avoid spreading it to their own vulnerable relatives. There seem to be far too many people thinking it generally won't matter if covid spreads widely, so long as we can accept a few more covid deaths. It will still matter though and I think those people are the ones who are going to be in for a shock if cases keep rising the way they are at the moment.

This is one of the true worries that everyone saying they will ignore restrictions seems to ignore.

No, I won't. Life is short and by March we will all have lost a year of life with loved ones. I've had covid and it was nasty but not worth this new dystopian reality IMO.

Some people LOVE the rules as it legally justifies their anti social / introvert natures. I don't blame them, but they should own it rather than hide behind sanctimonious utterings / calling others "covidiots"

Thing is I know the virus may spread more but I really can’t go too much longer without seeing family. I don’t agree with it being illegal to see them. I know we need some restrictions going forwards like group numbers and rules in public but I’m not going to comply with any that stop me seeing family in a private house. There’s only so much the public can take and the government knew that from the start. There will have to be other ways of controlling the virus, or infrastructure will have to be bumped up to deal with it, but the majority of people won’t put up with this level of restrictions on our private lives for much longer.

I sincerely hope the vaccines will greatly improve the situation.

Because the lockdown system certainly isn't working,and is destroying lives and businesses

No, I can't live like this for another year on top of the 9 months we've already had.

I'm already reaching breaking point. I'm struggling to find much Christmas spirit and I'm starting to feel sad more and more each day. I miss my family but they're too far away for day visits. The weathers been true,y dreadful with rain all day every day and it's so cold, so outdoor doesn't work.

I've had covid. I know how horrid it can be. I was in hospital and will have life long complications and medication as a result. It was most likely picked up at my work place where restrictions aren't possible, so no real protection. I'm clinically vulnerable. I'm also now almost 90 days on and still struggling yet with the new strains possibly could be reaching a point where I may get it again I guess. I go to work and mix with a lot of households in close contact all day every day, but I can't see my own 7y nephew unless it's outside and 2m away,

I've lost 3 close relatives this year, although not from covid. I've dealt with 3 funerals with restrictions, the first couple with the 10 people only rules.

I can't live like this indefinitely. I want to see people I care about. I want to feel happy with life.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

Questions like this genuinely make me wonder at how little people seem to understand how the economy works. If rules did carry on at this level for a whole year then covid would be the absolute least of anyone's worries - the country would be so entirely decimated that the main issue would be fucking starvation. Honestly, are people just totally disconnected from reality? Some smug lockdowners are going to get a massive shock when they start to realise in 2021 that they've 'stayed safe' by setting fire to their whole fucking lives.

I completely agree with you

I am in the extremely vulnerable group and wont be here next Christmas anyway. However if people dont change their behaviour I can still see the virus being rampant. We are in tier 4 but next door neighbours have buggered off somewhere for 3 days , they never followerd the rules during the first lockdown and they wont be the only ones.

It's really REALLY not true that nobody thought in March we'd be in this position by Christmas. As soon as the first peak was over (and probably sooner) the NHS was planning for winter.

Many companies told people to work from home till June 2021.

A lot has happened in the last 8 months - genuinely the NHS has been world leading in treatment trials, the vulnerable will be vaccinated by Summer. There will be a big rush to vaccinate everyone who needs to be before next winter.

And I would really hope that the government has dug out the pandemic preparation plan.

@eeeyulesmiles

But we would also have to make our peace with the fact that if the virus was still spreading, doctors and nurses would eventually have to start making some very difficult decisions about who not to treat as hospitals would be at capacity. People would be turned away. And I’m sure there would be uproar when this happened and that might then make people more likely to stay away from family etc because you’d be risking them catching it and then not being treated.

The trouble is that if this happens (battlefield triage and doctors and nurses having to make quick and brutal decisions about who gets treatment), it won't just be covid patients being turned away - it could be patients with any condition. People who've been in car accidents who could survive but who won't pass the triage, people with symptoms that might be a heart attack or stroke but who won't get an ambulance or the close attention they need, pregnant women who need a surgeon to do a c section and so on. The NHS being overwhelmed doesn't just mean a few fewer people survive covid - it could mean hospitals having to shut their doors to all sorts of patients.

To stop that happening people would need to be motivated to avoid spreading covid full stop, not just to avoid spreading it to their own vulnerable relatives. There seem to be far too many people thinking it generally won't matter if covid spreads widely, so long as we can accept a few more covid deaths. It will still matter though and I think those people are the ones who are going to be in for a shock if cases keep rising the way they are at the moment.

I don't understand this. Are you saying that maternity wards will be given over to Covid patients? Why would this happen? No doctor on earth is going to prioritise an elderly patient above a woman in childbirth.

Are dentists, anaesthetists, cancer specialists etc all going to be redeployed on Covid wards? It doesn't make sense.

This isn't snark, it's genuine lack of understanding.

@HelloitsmeMargaret

It's really REALLY not true that nobody thought in March we'd be in this position by Christmas. As soon as the first peak was over (and probably sooner) the NHS was planning for winter.

Many companies told people to work from home till June 2021.

A lot has happened in the last 8 months - genuinely the NHS has been world leading in treatment trials, the vulnerable will be vaccinated by Summer. There will be a big rush to vaccinate everyone who needs to be before next winter.

And I would really hope that the government has dug out the pandemic preparation plan.

Yes, I don't get all these people who said 'they told us it would be 3 weeks lockdown and then it would be over!'. Its bullshit. Once we locked down in March it was clear we were all in deep shit and that the following winter was going to be tough.

There is nothing that has happened so far that has been unexpected, and if anything we are in a much better position than expected as we have already started vaccinating, I don't think a vaccine was expected so quickly!

@TheKeatingFive

I know a few people who have said they enjoyed Christmas day for the first time in years.

Having a small, contained Christmas has always been an option for people, I wonder a bit about why they needed a global pandemic to achieve it.

Outside pressure? Too many people going along with what's expected of them. This year they feel they have the perfect excuse to do things differently and scale things down to a more enjoyable and affordable level. It's a pity it's taken a pandemic to cause this shift.

@MichelleScarn

*08:38Hardbackwriter

TheKeatingFive

I know a few people who have said they enjoyed Christmas day for the first time in years.

Having a small, contained Christmas has always been an option for people, I wonder a bit about why they needed a global pandemic to achieve it.

Because they enjoy being a martyr as much as they enjoy a small Christmas day. This year has given this particular kind of dreary individual the wonderful chance to do both at once!*

Definitely! And awaiting the Python-esque martyrdom upmanship! 'Ooh you've not seen family in 9 months or been out for anything other than food?' We've not left the house since March 2020 and not set eyes on a single other person, all our doors have been sealed and we only accept deliveries through a airless hatch access"

For the first time ever I'm not in debt due to overspending at Christmas. If that makes me a martyr . I. Don't Care.

@thereisonlyoneofme

I am in the extremely vulnerable group and wont be here next Christmas anyway. However if people dont change their behaviour I can still see the virus being rampant. We are in tier 4 but next door neighbours have buggered off somewhere for 3 days , they never followerd the rules during the first lockdown and they wont be the only ones.

Hope you enjoyed this Christmas!

Some people are selfish.

Equally, someone who has taken those precautions seeing another person who has taken them is of very minimal risk to anyone else.

Exactly. A lot of people on MN can’t seem to grasp that if you isolate for 10-14 days and your parents do too, then you drive to their house or vice versa and meet up, the risk of catching COVID is infinitesimal.

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

Already not, so no.

If this gov keeps chucking me into a work environment with no real mitigation measures, whilst telling me and everyone else that I'm safe even though I'm not, then fuck 'em. Going to do what I want.

This is exactly my mentality. If it's that dangerous, they can put in more safety measures for my work environment. Until then I'm going to carry on evaluating my own risks instead of blindly following the rules.

Some people are selfish.

Nope - they’ve just had enough and want to see their families. If you take precautions in advance of a meet-up, then the chances of catching the virus or transmitting it to anyone else are slim to zero.

@HelloitsmeMargaret

It's really REALLY not true that nobody thought in March we'd be in this position by Christmas. As soon as the first peak was over (and probably sooner) the NHS was planning for winter.

Many companies told people to work from home till June 2021.

A lot has happened in the last 8 months - genuinely the NHS has been world leading in treatment trials, the vulnerable will be vaccinated by Summer. There will be a big rush to vaccinate everyone who needs to be before next winter.

And I would really hope that the government has dug out the pandemic preparation plan.

Everyone who has been paying attention expected this winter to be worse. The vaccines have come out more quickly and are more effective than anticipated so if anything we’re at an advantage to original estimates.

For the first time ever I'm not in debt due to overspending at Christmas.
If that makes me a martyr .
I. Don't Care.

Did you really need a global pandemic to stop overspending?

*I don't understand this. Are you saying that maternity wards will be given over to Covid patients? Why would this happen? No doctor on earth is going to prioritise an elderly patient above a woman in childbirth.

Are dentists, anaesthetists, cancer specialists etc all going to be redeployed on Covid wards? It doesn't make sense.

This isn't snark, it's genuine lack of understanding.*

This is all obviously hypothetical what I’m about to say. I can’t imagine maternity wards being given to COVID patients. However, teams are being redeployed, and it is not outside the realms of possibility for the junior doctors currently doing an obstetrics and gynae rotation to be pulled elsewhere. Also depending on the hospital, if you have COVID you go to the COVID ward (I saw a pregnant person there when I thought in any other scenario they would be on an antenatal ward). If they have to convert some theatres into an HDU or ICU unit, that means less theatres and you will need to prioritise emergency surgeries which is not ideal when time is of the essence in an obstetric emergency.

Anaesthetists do a lot of work in ICU ensuring all the infusions are correct etc. I’m not familiar with how we are doing for anaesthetist numbers tbh but if there is a shortage, for monitoring and choosing appropriate infusions, a suitably trained pharmacist would help.

Cancer specialists may still be able to continue working but if a cancer patient needs surgery, will there be theatres available? Where do you put them afterwards if recovery is being used as an ICU?

Dentists would be helpful with intubating patients actually (my knowledge of a dentist’s scope of practice is hugely limited-apologies!)

Do bear in mind it’s not just elderly people being admitted with COVID. I’ve seen plenty of people in early 40’s onwards. And all of this can only happen if there’s enough nurses, midwives and HCA’s on the ground.

Also the wards will be set up in a certain way, if there’s space on a COVID ward, you can’t put a patient there. Bed flow is very hard to get right.

Sorry for coming across all garbled.

Forgot to tag @MorrisZapp

Thanks for answering. Why would Covid always over ride though? I understand that triage and potentially difficult choices would be required but I don't understand why the Covid patient 'wins' and the non Covid patient is turned away.

It's a silly question really because things won't be the same this time next year. Once the majority of the elderly and clinically vulnerable are vaccinated covid will be more like that other nasty virus that kills people every year, the flu. We don't take any measures to protect the vulnerable from flu do we? There will still be deaths but much reduced numbers so the NHS will be able to cope, just, as they do with flu every year. The restrictions are only about not overwhelming the NHS and ensuring not too many people need hospital treatment at the same time.