To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

@BeanToCup

How come it’s growing now, DESPITE 9 months of restrictions, in what seems like a worse way than in early March when we did fuck all?!

As pps have said, because our testing and tracing isn't up to scratch and hasn't been throughout. We have no clue how many people caught it in March so we don't know what the numbers are re infections compared to deaths. Even now we aren't testing contacts, just people with one or more of three symptoms when it's already widely known that there are at least eight other symptoms and also there is asymptomatic transmission. So basically we don't know who's got it and who hasn't. So we can't control the spread. Countries who test like fuck and have done throughout have it largely under control now and because the testing infrastructure is already there can quickly move to squash any surges.

Yeah true I guess. Although we had 1000 deaths a day at the peak, caused by presumably 100000 infections a day, transmitted when we had bugger all suppression measures. So after 9 months of shite we’ve only been able to get the daily deaths to about half that?! Seems ridiculous

OP I haven't RTFT and I agree with most of your points but curious to know what you think the solution is? I'm not asking rhetorically genuinely, what do you propose?

Honestly I have toyed with the idea of actually letting people catch it and not giving everyone ICU - I actually think that could be a possible solution. As currently many other people (myself included) with medical conditions are unable to get treatment - what makes Covid so special that all of diagnoses have to be sidelined?. It's still causing deaths just with another cause on the death certificate.

Other than the above though, I don't really see any other solution? And I know my above view will get flamed but genuinely I think we are putting the 'price' of death too high.

We should not all be entitled to ICU treatment, if hospitals get full then people should not receive treatment is my honest opinion.

Just like people right now are being told they can't have cancer treatment turning away from ICU is no different.

Agree that rule breaking is only a minor component, although it's annoying when you see it.

But according to the rules, my kids can go into a school building with over 2500 people in it every day, sit in rooms with 30+ others with no protection when they're there, travel on crowded buses to said school, stop off at McDonald's on the way home for a takeaway etc, and when there is a case at school (and there have been many), they only need to isolate if they've been within two metres of the infected pupil during the previous two days, and even if they isolate they don't need to be tested - in fact, they can't be - and I can continue to go to work. Even if I work in a health or care setting.

That all happens from following the rules.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s insane. I think it’s a fabulous example of social contagion at a global scale, where everyone (governments and individuals) are panicking solely because everyone else is.

Also agree if they’d pumped a fraction of the money that’s gone into furlough into expanding hospital capacities and training lots of auxiliary healthcare staff we wouldn’t be in this situation - 9 months is plenty of time to train an auxiliary nurse to free up the trained nurses who aren’t off sick to do the difficult stuff.

And I know it’s politically incorrect but we’re putting in all this effort and destroying the economy, people’s mental health and children’s education to save the lives of people in their 80s/90s. The average life expectancy in this country is less than the average age of death from Covid. Why are these people deserving of all this effort when they’ve already had long, fulfilling lives? I know there are exceptions but statistically, not many, most are really really old and already have Alzheimer’s, dementia or cancer. My two grandparents in their late eighties/nineties think it’s all insane and would much rather die from Covid in a couple of weeks than years of pain and indignity from dementia or cancer.

@nevereverplease I would just want to carry on with mitigation methods whilst we vaccinate, without actually ordering businesses to close. I would favour a return to the two metre rule in shops with limited numbers being allowed to enter.

I think greater efforts could be made to shield vulnerable people. So children or families with certain conditions could stay off school without fines, be enrolled into proper online school. Extra funding for schools to furlough any very vulnerable teachers and temporarily employ supply teachers.

Renewed efforts with track and trace. Full pay for those who isolate.

Still many people would undoubtedly catch covid. But I think that they will in any case especially if the new strain is more contagious and that in this way more businesses would have a chance of surviving.

PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

That sounds such common sense.

@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit but with your strategy ICU would undoubtedly get full - so what happens then?

@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit I'd vote for you for office if you decide to run as you're one of the very few speaking sense.

I agree with the pp saying it's social contagion on a global level - so awful and can't see a way out.

@nevereverplease @PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit has already said she'd channel funding into additional support for the NHS so full ICUs would likely not be the reality given they're not the reality so far.

@Belladonna12

The bit I find insane is not vaccinating all our key health care staff first.

It is insane although I do know quite a lot of NHS staff who were vaccinated last week.

Will staff who have had the vaccine still have to isolate if a contact of a positive case? Or if they test positive themselves, in the event the vaccine prevents symptoms but not against catching the virus?

If it doesn’t prevent catching the virus how will it help with NHS staff capacity? I assumed it was for the protection of front line workers but if it’ll help with hospital resources then great!

@BenoneBeauty @PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit yes but they WOULD get full if the infection rate went out of control inevitably. It's about staffing too how would NHS find enough staff and train them to administer ICU equipment?

Agree with all that @PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit is saying.

[quote nevereverplease]@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit but with your strategy ICU would undoubtedly get full - so what happens then? [/quote]
Doctors would decide who gets treatment and who doesn’t. Lots of people would die (of covid and other illnesses for which they can’t get treatment). There would be mass panic when people call 999 and are told the ambulance isn’t coming.

Sadly I suspect this will happen regardless of what we do if this new strain is as transmissible as feared.

I do get that @nevereverplease but think the impact overall would be a lot less devastating for everyone if @PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit 'S ideas and suggestions were followed rather than the chaos we have currently.

Sounds eminently sensible - I would go for a UBI for everyone too.

Plus loads more protection for vulnerable children.

IMO its not a given that ICU's would get full - we would still be taking steps to mitigate - SD etc and keep infection rates down. Plus we know tons more about treating the disease at an early stage than in March - much more CPAP/Hi Flo is being used, dexamethasone etc.

Much more investment into preventing nosocomial infection too - hence hopefully less patients catching it in hospital then going on to need critical care. Hospital/care home acquired infections are a large contingent of our positives since this all started.

I agree OP. 100%. So many people wringing their hands because their cousins best friends mother might be spending Christmas with two people outside of their bubble. Maybe this is down to increasing mental issues caused by covid rules, because the cure imposed on us by the government is going to prove worse longterm than the decease itself.

*Something like 23% of those caught Covid after admission for other procedures/treatments though.

So not all coming into hospital because of Covid*

@Vintagevixen you raise a fair point but those people will/should be managed on a covid ward until discharge. They’re using up the same resources wherever they got it.

The question is how is that manageable in a scenario we don’t implement measures to restrict the spread to reduce the chances of it getting into hospitals in the first place. What’s the alternative to the measures that damage the economy?

I agree OP.
Seeing so many small businesses being wantonly destroyed is heartbreaking.
The rich are getting richer and the poor decimated.
But it’s for our own safety, go figure.

@Cornettoninja

@cornettoninja How can we expect masks to work to stop transmission in shops, public transport etc, if nearly a quarter of Covid cases have acquired Covid in hospital?

Doctors would decide who gets treatment and who doesn’t

That already happens. You’re talking about completely changing the criteria to battlefield triage.

Ethically I don’t think that’s acceptable when we have vaccines so close. Fwiw that’s also incredibly psychologically damaging to the HCP who have to implement it - not an insignificant amount of people. It’s a pretty good way to lose the skills permanently from the work force.

[quote hollyangel]@cornettoninja How can we expect masks to work to stop transmission in shops, public transport etc, if nearly a quarter of Covid cases have acquired Covid in hospital?

[/quote]
I don’t know, that’s what I’m asking.

@Cornettoninja What’s the alternative to the measures that damage the economy?

So take non essential shops in London. In November we shut them all. Then we opened them in December. They were more crowded than usual as people tried to do their Christmas shopping in less time. Then they were shut with a few hours notice at what should have been one of the best time of the year for sales. It is like a recipe for driving them out of business.

I would have liked to see them open the whole time with restrictions on numbers from November onwards (or whenever it was obvious our numbers were going up)

I bet it wouldn't have made that much difference to the infection rates. Feels like we are playing some mad game of musical statues with the economy at the moment.

Testing. If we tested and isolated and financially compensated contacts, those people wouldn't be in shops. We don't need to lock everyone down, just the people who have it. But we do need to identify them and make sure they stay put. If we do that, they can't infect others. That's it.

Apparently Nicola sturgeon is now looking at making staying in your house LAW