To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

Could any medical professional on this thread please explain to me why exactly Sweden doesn't have bodies piled in the streets due to only minor restrictions and no mask-wearing?

I've shown the deaths per capita a number of times, but no one will answer me as to why their strategy has resulted in broadly the same number of deaths per capita as the UK and other European countries at at a fraction of the cost to their economy/society?

Why do 3rd world countries have poor life expectancy? Because of poor nutrition, poor sanitation and no health care.

Which is exactly what we'll have when unemployment is up to 10%+ and millions of families can't afford heating and have to use food banks. Everyone telling people not to go to shops or pubs.....those shop and pub employees will eventually be out of a job. Where will we then get the tax money from to fund their benefits and public services like the NHS? This is a just a short-sighted policy from a government that are only in for 3 more years. Once they're out, the economy won't be their problem - they'll be in the Bahamas and the UK will be in 1970s levels of recession.

I see the word "selfish" used a lot on this thread. But "selfish" seems to mean prioritising somebody or something that is different to the poster's priorities. The poster themselves always displays "selfishness" too!

For example: branding a post "selfish" to prioritise the education and mental health of children and young adults by wanting schools and sports programs to stay open and businesses to remain viable over detriment to folks in the group below.

EQUALLY:

"Selfish" to prioritise the elderly and those at risk of dying of Covid some years earlier than cancer/heart disease/dementia/ other flu over the first group.

We're all Bl00dy selfish. Pots, kettles and all.

So, what doesn't make sense? Pretending it can all be prioritised.

@vickyp0llard

2) Actually, there have been many, many studies done linking unemployment and lower GDP to lower life expectancy. Why do third world countries have shit life expectancy? Healthy economy = longer life.

3. PCR tests might be fine but the number of cycles we are running them at is over-amplifying cases. The recommended number of cycles is something like 30, we are running our tests at 45.

Yep, I'm selfish, newsflash - so are most people. There's only so much the average person is willing to sacrifice for people they don't know. 3 month lockdown - fine. Years of rolling lockdowns? Nope.

Pretty certain third world have poor health due to sanitation. Poor diet. Poor Heath. Not enough doctors

Not because they don't have enough banks...

@hepatocyte

OP, this post isn’t well thought out at all.

The counterfactual situation to what we are in now isn’t normal life without lockdown restrictions, it’s life with an uncontrolled pandemic without lockdown restrictions.

Mental health services, schools, routine operations won’t be running as normal because we will be totally overwhelmed by coronavirus :/

An important point you’ve missed when you compare mortality to flu season is that these are the numbers without large gatherings, reduced travel etc etc. The absolute carnage we would have seen without any early policies would have been much higher death rates.

I’m saying this as an epidemiologist.

Thank goodness for sensible posts like this.

@PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

In principle you are right on all points and I agree.

Sadly though it just doesn't work like that. It would be impossible to shield everyone that needed it and you would not have access to health care because it would be like a war zone.

Bella some on this thread have said that long Covid can be an issue in all people who have contracted Covid.
That mild symptoms or none are no protection from it.
So the vaccine won’t help with that*

I think those who are vaccinated will get no symptoms or actual actual mild symptoms (i.e. not described as mild just because they are not hospitalised ) so it will be a protection against long Covid.

@hollyangel

Could any medical professional on this thread please explain to me why exactly Sweden doesn't have bodies piled in the streets due to only minor restrictions and no mask-wearing?

I've shown the deaths per capita a number of times, but no one will answer me as to why their strategy has resulted in broadly the same number of deaths per capita as the UK and other European countries at at a fraction of the cost to their economy/society?

Was that the country that tested 100% of their population and only locked down the positive people? So the rest carried on that were negative? This stopping the virus in its tracks?

@Beautifulbonnie No, they didn't do that either.

@lovelylittlepanda yep. I'm selfish because I care more about businesses, mortgages, education, mental health and quality of life of tens of millions of people with their whole life ahead of them, than 82 year olds. Shoot me.

@Beautifulbonnie the economy isn't "more banks", what an idiotic statements. The economy is jobs and prospects, which provides taxes to pay for public services, which in turn provides good health/nutrition/mental health. If we're all out of a job and on benefits, we won't be eating good food, we won't be in good health, and mental health will be shite too. I know people who have lived through an economic collapse, and they would rather die of Covid than have their children live through years of unemployment, empty shops and streets full of homeless people and drug addicts.

@happylittlechick
We need to save the nhs. If we let the virus run wild the nhs will be overwhelmed and hospitals will be unable to treat people with and without Covid.

But that exactly is the problem, people aren’t treated now in case more Covid beds will be needed. Hospitals are not working at full capacity however every other year they would. Non Covid wards are half empty because non emergency treatment has been put on hold. But It’s only so long you can postpone treatment of other illnesses before it becomes emergency.

My father in law needs a second operation for knee replacement as the first one has gone wrong. He was scheduled for an op in March 2020, it’s been postponed with no date on it. He’s on strong painkillers and massive pain, swollen knee and barely able to walk.

My husband had infected wisdom teeth. Absolute agony, all he could have was a phone call with the dentist saying they are not able to see him.

Yes, I think it’s wrong that people are turned away from medical help because there is only one illness at the moment apparently.

The thing is, we are mortal, we die. Unhappily even children and young people die, far less in this country than in developing nations, or a 100 years ago. But for all we can do to protect them, it happens. Even without illnesses there are traffic accidents, house fires, the danger of water.

However, they also die of despair. Poverty and isolation lead to despair. Not all homes are mumsnet homes, with Christmas Elves and healthy food. I have been helping with food bank hampers and Christmas packages. Some have been delivered to families where the babies are on bare floors, undressed except for nappies. Last week a parent wouldn't even turn around from his gaming to acknowledge a delivery. That was a house where a child was not dressed. People with no hope turn to drink and drugs and sometimes violence, and their children suffer terribly. This covid situation is making it much much worse. There have never been so many families needing help.

People upthread say 'one death of a child is too much.' Therefore lockdown society. But what they mean is 'one death of a child like mine is too much.' Not one death in an already desperate family. Not one more teenager pushed out on the streets to make cash whatever way they can.

If we genuinely cared about child death, without self interest, there wouldn't be children dying for lack of a 50p measles vaccination. There wouldn't be children dying in Syria from British made arms.

It's narrow visioned and hypocrisy to pretend anything else.

hollyangel SAGE actually wrote a report on Sweden's approach. In short, their economy has fared no better than its neighouring countries, while the death rate is higher.

www.independentsage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Sweden_case-study-v2.pdf

Some significant quotes:

"Firstly, the idea that Sweden has no restrictions or lockdown is a misconception"

"While the other Nordic countries of Denmark, Norway and Finland all imposed much tougher restrictions during the first wave, by the end of June all four countries had similar levels of restrictions in place as lockdown restrictions were progressively eased. In fact, Sweden’s restrictions were more stringent than those in Denmark, Norway and Finland over the summer"

"it seems seriously misleading to draw direct comparisons between Sweden and the UK. Rather, it is appropriate to compare Sweden with its
Nordic neighbours."

"Sweden has one of the highest current per capita death rates from COVID-19 in Europe"

"Although Sweden’s social restrictions were milder than its EU neighbours, the economic contraction that it has suffered is not out of line with Denmark and Finland both of which imposed tighter restrictions and suffered far fewer cases of, and deaths from, COVID-19"

@outofthemoon Exactly. People are absolute hypocrites. People losing their jobs and homes will completely ruin millions of childrens lives - children that would have had a warm, happy home will now have stressed and unemployed parents that may commit suicide, get into bad health, become violent or get into crime/drugs because of the threat of reposession or bankruptcy. People with stable, successful businesses will have to go on benefits and their children's prospects will be markedly worse. But as long as we save granny, the economy is just banks and can be recovered at any time!

@outofthemoon Totally agree, society are completely detached from the idea that death happens. Possibly because there are fewer deaths at home surrounded by loved ones and more deaths occurring in hospitals/care homes.

The WHO definition of health is as follows:

Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

Haven't rtft but vickyp00llard I agree with. Currently society is choosing to protect the elderly and vulnerable from Covid, over and above other groups of people and other concerns. It's a choice. It may be the right or the wrong choice depending on your perspective, but it is not inherently less selfish to protect the elderly from Covid than to protect those who are lonely, mentally ill, losing their jobs, losing their homes, in abusive relationships etc.

@vickyp0llard I give up if you genuinely think that 10% unemployment will get us to the situation of a 3rd world country in terms of sanitation, healthcare and nutrition there is absolutely no logic there. Does 10% unemployment mean that our sewer system will disintegrate, that the govt will stop medical supplies coming in, and that we would be forced to live on gruel and water?

1991 saw 10% unemployment, yet here we are.

Argue away, I can't be doing with the lack of logic. Off to do some nice Christmassy things.

The thing is, we are mortal, we die. Unhappily even children and young people die, far less in this country than in developing nations, or a 100 years ago. But for all we can do to protect them, it happens. Even without illnesses there are traffic accidents, house fires, the danger of water.

I think it's crazy how completely we seem to have forgotten this as a society. We are all going to die. I do understand why people talk about how 80+ year old people are as deserving of life as anyone else but truthfully it's only recently that we have been living as long as we do. We're fortunate to have the life expectancy that we do.

I couldn't agree more OP. 100 years ago TBC, another infectious lung disease, was a real threat which cut the lives of many people short. Yet no one in the world would have considered to quarantine entire nations for months on end; it was a fact of life, just like cancer is a fact of life until this day, and we don't throw all our money at screening and life-extending cures for that one.

Lockdown, economic depression and unemployment will absolutely ruin loads of younger people's lives and cause lower life expectancy for many years to come, which to me is a lot more of a travesty than 82 year olds dying.

Why are you banging on about 82 year olds? Here are some weekly death stats, broken down by age in 5 year increments, from earlier in the year and now (first line is under 1s). The line I’ve highlighted is 50-54 year olds. There are a lot of weekly deaths of people in their 40s and 50s, some in their 20s and 30s and some younger. Not all have underlying conditions but even if they did, so what? We know that things like diabetes and obesity increase risk of death - even with underlying health issues these are not conditions that would be imminently killing people. Which conditions do you think make people expendable.

And if you think for a second that those supporting these measures are tories, you’re mad. I would rather cut out my own eyes with a spoon than support the Tories. They have made a giant mess of this and their unwillingness to piss off their voters and biggest supporters at the outset is why we have to keep repeating this cycle. Doesn’t mean that the restrictions aren’t necessary if we want to have a functioning NHS, things like maternity services and A&E and urgent care that can’t be postponed.

I give up if you genuinely think that 10% unemployment will get us to the situation of a 3rd world country in terms of sanitation, healthcare and nutrition there is absolutely no logic there. Does 10% unemployment mean that our sewer system will disintegrate, that the govt will stop medical supplies coming in, and that we would be forced to live on gruel and water?

I didn't mean we'd turn into Africa, I just meant that unemployment and fall in GDP of double digits (coupled with no-deal Brexit) will likely cause more harm to our society and life expectancy than taking a laissez-faire approach to Covid would.

Also, I believe quality of life is just as important as quantity. I don't believe the quality of life of millions of people should be stripped back to increase quantity of life for people who are, on average, already over average life expectancy.

[quote vickyp0llard]@lovelylittlepanda yep. I'm selfish because I care more about businesses, mortgages, education, mental health and quality of life of tens of millions of people with their whole life ahead of them, than 82 year olds. Shoot me.

@Beautifulbonnie the economy isn't "more banks", what an idiotic statements. The economy is jobs and prospects, which provides taxes to pay for public services, which in turn provides good health/nutrition/mental health. If we're all out of a job and on benefits, we won't be eating good food, we won't be in good health, and mental health will be shite too. I know people who have lived through an economic collapse, and they would rather die of Covid than have their children live through years of unemployment, empty shops and streets full of homeless people and drug addicts.[/quote]
@vickyp0llard I wasn't saying you were the only selfish one, I'm saying all those calling you selfish are themselves, too! Everybody things anybody with a view that is not their own is "selfish".

You're selfish AND self-aware/ honest.

Your detractors are just selfish ;-)

I couldn't agree more OP. Tired of being locked up whilst the government attempts to eradicate death.

My opinion has changed over the last couple of days. I used to think that a lockdown would work and it was worth it. But now I see very elderly people being vaccinated, a lot of whom will return to just sitting in the same room all day anyway, and I wonder why they don’t vaccinate carers and healthcare workers who actually travel between them all. And I feel we’ve rolled right back down the bottom of the hill, so what was the bloody point of any of it? I see immense financial hardship all over the place, and I see a NHS that is clearly not fit for purpose. I’m not the same earnest believer that I was at the beginning of this shit show at all.

@outofthemoon
"It's narrow visioned and hypocrisy to pretend anything else."

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.