How many people actually understand the Christmas bubble rule?

[BananaPie]

It’s supposed to be three households in a bubble, and no mixing outside that.

So if we visit MIL on Xmas day, and she then visits BIL and his family on Boxing Day, that is it. None of us are supposed to see anyone else indoors for the rest of the 5 days.

Do people generally get this? I don’t think it’s been all that clear in the government comms, and seems like loads of people are going to break the rules, and we’ll see a huge number of cases among the elderly in January.

I think it’s clear. Or at least I am clear about it.
I don’t think the increased risk for us/our family is big since one household is in a support bubble with the other, and we are a linked childcare household. Basically we are already connected with one another.

@UghNotThisAgain36

It doesn't matter what the guidelines say, people will do whatever they please because the think they have special, more pressing reasons to ignore/misinterpret the rules. It seems silly to take the risk with the vaccine now being given. We'll see a huge drive in the governments 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should' crap too.

I will judge them as I live in the highest area of infection in the south east. I'm seeing none of my family indoors over Christmas except my children and DP. If I can manage that, they can too.

It also makes me wonder who actually IS self isolating (i.e. not letting their teens out to gather in groups, not Christmas shopping in shops etc) in order to see vunerable relatives.

We also live in a high rate south east area but we are seeing family (stocking up the three household bubble though). We are actually isolating. I’m in mat leave, DH works from home, we’ve been having food deliveries since March anyway. Haven’t been in any shops, restaurants or pubs recently. No school or nursery age children. The only people we we are our support bubble who are in exactly the same situation as us. I was meeting others outdoors but have stopped that now in the run up to Christmas so I don’t have any risk outside our ‘bubble’.

halcyondays

I think you’re only allowed one existing bubble within the Christmas bubble. So max of four households.

Can anyone clarify if this is the case? Because if so we need to rethink our Christmas bubble.
At the moment I (single parent) am in a support bubble with Mum and Step-Dad.
Littlest brother (single adult) is in a support bubble with little brother and his family. We were planning to spend Christmas day together and are classed as 2 households. This leaves little brother and his wife free to see her parents as the 3rd household in our bubble.

I think the rules are clear. But I think a lot of people are blindly following them without thinking about the risks. If your dc are in school this week I can’t understand why people think it’s then okay to mix inside next week?

I also think there is a lot of misuse of the “support bubble”. And not thinking about the risks involved.

@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander

Yes, that's right.

Support bubble counts as one household for Christmas bubbles

Plus 2 more families

Theses rules are there for people to make their own risk assessment. (I would hope a great many have already decided that it was daft to traipse 1/2 way across the country to see elderly and vulnerable who "should" have many Christmases ahead of them).

Yes, I appreciate that some people really NEED to do this for their own mental health etc., but the rest of us should hunker down.

I think three is a tricky number, and I'm surprised they went for it. Two would have been much clearer - it makes it clear you have to 'pick a side', which lots of people feel like can't possibly be the intention with three households (but is the only way to do it for most family configurations). The big problem with three is that it usually means one family goes in the 'middle' and so they get to see both households but it restricts the other two more than they'd like - e.g. a couple see both sets of parents but those parents wouldn't have chosen the other set as their bubble, they might not even know each other, so a lot of people then feeling that surely they can have another household that they actually want in their bubble. I think the guidance is quite clear but people don't follow rules that feel 'wrong' to them (this was also a problem when you could meet other households in a business place but not a private home, as again that just felt 'unfair' to many). As I said, I think two households would have been a lot better in many ways because it makes it clearer that you're meant to have to choose some people and leave others out.

Thing is, technically that means that if 3 support bubbles get together that should be one Christmas bubble, which could be really a lot of people. I'm not sure the government gave answered whether more the one support bubble can form a Christmas bubble, and I have been through the guidance with a fine tooth comb

It's a little bit like the public health guidelines telling us that smoking is bad and living on a diet of takeaways and/or drinking to excess is a really good way to guarantee an early death.

Plenty still do it.

The big problem with three is that it usually means one family goes in the 'middle' and so they get to see both households but it restricts the other two more than they'd like - e.g. a couple see both sets of parents but those parents wouldn't have chosen the other set as their bubble, they might not even know each other, so a lot of people then feeling that surely they can have another household that they actually want in their bubble

Exactly this. And that's before you get to complications like adult children, step families etc. From my MILs point of view, she'll think 'I've got 2 DSs and I'll see both of them at Christmas'.

She's unlikely to consider that if she did this, this prevents me from seeing any of my family, or if I see my family DP and I can't see her. Likewise, with this plan, she'd be stopping BILs wife from seeing any of her family. Or if SIL sees her adult DD and MIL, MIL can't see us.

Whoever came up with that plan must have put no thought whatsoever into the practicalities and there's going to be a lot of people thinking that they are within the rules because they've only mixed with 2 other households and not consider who those households are mixing with.

Support bubble counts as one household for Christmas bubbles

Yes, this is what the guidance says. Personally, I think it's crazy as you could end up with as many as 6 households gathering under one roof, but that's what the guidance says.

Well Robert Jenrick did say people should use their own judgment. I think people travelling across the country and stay for several days crammed in together is a disaster waiting to happen
Yes, I agree with you that lots of cross country travel is a huge risk. But he meant use your judgement as in use your own judgement to decide whether you are going to see 3 households just because the rules allow it.

Not use your own judgement to decide if the 3 household rule applies to everyone else but if you feel like 5 is ok, and someone else things 6 is ok as long as it's a short visit, and someone else decides it's 3 households at a time so sees 3 families a day to fit everyone in.

Whilst I don't agree with people totally ignoring the 3 household rule, I have more respect for someone who says "We would have 3 households but one of our older relatives lives alone and would rather take the risk and have one last Christmas, so we are mixing with 4 households" than some of the nonsense on here about how the rules only apply to families travelling / well technically it's not the rule but we are an exemption because they don't apply to us / any other deliberate ignoring of the rules whilst claiming they just don't quite understand the technicalities.

[quote VictoriasCousin]@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander

Yes, that's right.

Support bubble counts as one household for Christmas bubbles

Plus 2 more families [/quote]
Yes I'm aware of that.

What i was questioning was a PP saying only 1 existing bubble was allowed. Which sounded to me like only 1 of our existing bubbles (mine and mums vs brother and brother) would be allowed. So what we are counting as 2 households would actually be 3.
Meaning brother and his wife can't see her family.

What i was questioning was a PP saying only 1 existing bubble was allowed. Which sounded to me like only 1 of our existing bubbles (mine and mums vs brother and brother) would be allowed. So what we are counting as 2 households would actually be 3.

I can't see anything in the guidance to that effect. Personally,I don't think it's responsible to mix that many households, but that's just my opinion. I don't think you would be breaking the rules, assuming that all of your existing bubbles fall within them.

I mostly understand the basic rules but I am confused as to how separated parents work out over xmas? Just my dc seeing their dads/dads side of family takes me to my bubble limit. But I'm sure none of their dads are taking the dc into account when planning their bubbles so technically my dc will be in more bubbles than me

@Iwantacookie

I mostly understand the basic rules but I am confused as to how separated parents work out over xmas? Just my dc seeing their dads/dads side of family takes me to my bubble limit. But I'm sure none of their dads are taking the dc into account when planning their bubbles so technically my dc will be in more bubbles than me

Children can move freely between the 2 bubbles. You and your ex aren't classed as being in a bubble together. So technically the dc can be part of your 3 family bubble and their dads 3 family bubble.

@AlexaShutUp

What i was questioning was a PP saying only 1 existing bubble was allowed. Which sounded to me like only 1 of our existing bubbles (mine and mums vs brother and brother) would be allowed. So what we are counting as 2 households would actually be 3.

I can't see anything in the guidance to that effect. Personally,I don't think it's responsible to mix that many households, but that's just my opinion. I don't think you would be breaking the rules, assuming that all of your existing bubbles fall within them.

Thanks. Most of us haven't seen anyone or been anywhere that's indoors for weeks anyway so the chances of any of us having caught anything are very slim. Hence we've decided its safe for us personally. I would have been more cautious had the plan included my sister instead of a brother because she mixes with a lot more people at work and has been in and out of her friends houses throughout

My brother will be seeing his ILs after we've seen him so that doesn't actually affect me and any risks are entirely on them imo.

@theformer
Thank you. With everything being changed about I've lost the will to live with most of the rules. I dont think I've counted people so many times since I helped out on a class trip about 10 years ago.

Yes I think the rules are clear, but a clear proportion of people are twisting and contorting them into the most ridiculous scenarios whilst at the same time saying they are perfectly within the rules when they are not. Or then flouncing off with they don't care anyway whether they are or not as they are having their "normal" Christmas and won't be told what to do.

Frankly I've never heard such hysteria on this forum regarding any other topic (well maybe Brexit). I've also never heard of the number of supposed Grandparents who will suffer severe cruelty if they don't see their darling grandchildren on the day itself either.

There are exceptions of course and a one size does not fit all. But I'm disappointed and amazed to read on here of the number of people who are visiting their parents, with their inlaws, with their siblings and all children, Auntie Flossie, Uncle Bill, Auntie Maude etc etc. Apparently all really allowed within the Bubble because of blah blah blah.

They all seem to think they are immune from the situation. But everybody will pay the price for this in the future.

@AlexaShutUp

Support bubble counts as one household for Christmas bubbles

Yes, this is what the guidance says. Personally, I think it's crazy as you could end up with as many as 6 households gathering under one roof, but that's what the guidance says.

There also seem to be a lot of 'support bubbles' being formed just for Christmas, to be technically within the rules - e.g. I saw a poster working out how she could have all of her five adult children over because the single ones could be bubbles in a complicated convolution which made it technically three households. I think a lot of people are doing this (I've heard a lot of 'luckily MIL is single') which is a bit letter but not spirit of the law.

Yes I think it's very clear but lots of people are choosing to ignore it and have plans to move around bubbles just because they are fucking selfish can't bear the thought of not having their normal Christmas. I'm quietly seething at work listening to a few peoples plans to see as many people as they can for the 5 days as I'm probably spending Xmas on my own so I don't put my vulnerable parents at risk. 😡

I haven't looked at the Christmas rules as everything we are planning for Christmas is already allowed under the rules in our area so they make no difference to us. I am surprised how the bubbles seem to be quite flexible, in particular the support bubble aspect allowing up to six households to meet, I was completely unaware of that before this thread.

hardbackwriter I agree - and it’s amazing how covid can’t transmit between people in a support bubble

@DarceyDashwood this 100%. People are very deliberately playing dumb and interpreting it in whatever way is convenient and fits around their intentions or preference.

Every thread is filled with ‘technically not within the rules but... series-of-reasons-why-i-am-special

Some might sound fairly reasonable but still doesn’t change the fact it’s not within the rules. Or the fact that the rules do have reasons even if you don’t want to look deeply enough at the wider rationale and just want to dismiss them as illogical and stupid.

Also the ‘we are comfortable with the risk’ shit is boring at this point. It’s not just your risk to be comfortable with. It’s anyone you come into contact with in a shop, in work, in your kids school, the medical staff who have to treat you if you OR anyone you’ve been in contact with becomes particularly unwell. Any one who has to have contact with you if someone were to have an accident or you had to access a shop or hospital or police for some random event that wasn’t in your plans.

But there’s literally no point in anyone pointing this stuff out. The people who are choosing to dismiss all of that will do so regardless. They’ve decided they are entitled to now and that’s the end of it.

The rules are clear for most, for some they might need to double check their circumstances, but too many people choosing to stretch or break them thinking they or their loved ones will not be the ones impacted. Maybe they won't but someone's will.

My dbro is travelling from one UK country to another to stay with my niece and her dh. Coming this weekend and staying until 30th (2 households, breaking date guidelines)

Christmas day, the same niece is going to her mum for Christmas dinner it was supposed to be with just them and her dgp (one with COPD) to make up the 3 households. Now her bil and her dad are invited too as they would be on their own otherwise and its only an extra two people (now 5 households with people in jobs - retail/carehome - with contact with many people/general public and working over the Christmas period)

dbro doesn't visit often so while here he is planning to see (before and after Xmas day) his siblings in 3 different council areas in high tiers and I suspect a close friend in the area. Some of those siblings have adult children visiting for Christmas (at least 11 households he will have been with now, throwing into the mix school pupils/students, teacher, NHS staff). Some of those 11 households will be seeing other people too.

We lost my mum to covid in October, caught in hospital, maybe we wouldn't have if someone further back in that chain of transmission had made a different decision. I have said this to my dbro and told him he is mixing with too many people and cannot come to my home.
If the weather is ok I will meet him for a very socially distanced dog walk one day. Hopefully my other siblings will follow suit. He is not happy after he has travelled 400 miles to see us, wont be back for a while and was really looking forward to catching up/seeing his nephew too 🙄 and it is only family he is seeing.

Then he heads back home, hopefully not taking an unwanted gift back to his home UK country and his lodger who works in retail.........

I doubt what he is doing will be unusual over Christmas.