AIBU to think wiping down trolley handles is utterly pointless?

[RaspberryCoulis]

Just back from my weekly trek round Asda to do the shopping. Got hissed at by some woman because I bypassed the queue of people waiting in a (socially distanced) queue to spray and wipe their trolley handles.

I never bother, I have never bothered. Seems utterly pointless. Rates of Covid in my area sitting around 100 per 100,000. That's 0.001%. Even if you believe that 90% are asymptomatic, that would be 1000 per 100,000 or 0.01%. You'd have to be very unlucky for one of the 0.01% to be the person who had the trolley before you.

Then, that person would have had to be not wearing a mask (mask compliance in this town is very high), sneeze/cough/lick the trolley handle (removing their mask to do so), and then i'd have to smear my hands exactly where they'd licked, remove my own mask, and lick my fingers.

A somewhat unlikely scenario.

It's all about the supermarkets trying to show how "covid secure" they are, isn't it? And actually, it makes bugger all difference?

@wintertravel1980

According to ECDC:

www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/transmission

Currently available evidence indicates that COVID-19 may be transmitted from person to person through several different routes. In the scoping review published by La Rosa et al [1], the human coronaviruses primary transmission mode is person-to-person contact through respiratory droplets generated by breathing, sneezing, coughing, etc., as well as contact (direct contact with an infected subject or indirect contact, through hand-mediated transfer of the virus from contaminated fomites to the mouth, nose, or eyes). Infection is understood to be mainly transmitted via large respiratory droplets containing the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Transmission through aerosols has also been implicated but the relative role of large droplets and aerosols is still unclear. Indirect transmission through fomites that have been contaminated by respiratory secretions is considered possible, although, so far, transmission through fomites has not been documented.

Beat me to it.

I use the hand sanitiser on offer only to reassure other people, the same with trolley handles. If I do this it isn't to protect myself.

However, this risk for COVID is relatively low even at the population level

Yes, and some people have a low tolerance for risk and so they want to mitigate even a relatively low level. Which is perfectly ok. Hissing at people in supermarkets is not, and that was OP's original query.

I was actually asking OP why we should respect their opinion above those of people who have the opposite opinion, given their lack of interest in researching the subject, rather than opposing what they were saying.

I suppose that numerous people touch those handles on a daily basis, you then touch it then touch items on the shelves, some of which you may place back on the shelf...that's how it could spread. Just an observation.

Indirect transmission through fomites that have been contaminated by respiratory secretions is considered possible, although, so far, transmission through fomites ^has not been documented

And there you have it @wintertravel1980 .

Just because something has not bee documented does not mean it's not happening.

Science is learning more and more all the time.

The list of symptoms now has changed hugely from the first 3 in March.

Long Covid exists and wasn't known about then.

My dentists are assuming aerosol transmission exists as they are leaving 30 minutes between some treatments on patients and not doing certain treatments as routine as they involve aerosol risk.

They have clearly read all the evidence and decided to act with caution.

It's just the same for the individual using trolleys or touching 'touch points'.

Another great reason to do click and collect and avoid the judgement. I cant put up with people being rude for however many more months / years we are going to have to live with this

Also the sactomonius self flagulating ( or however you spell that)

Your single so eat 10g of pasta a week, we dont.
You only need one sheet of loo roll a month, we dont.
You have days spare to queue for only one bag of pasta a single loo roll, we dont
You have time to micro exam everyone else behaviour, we dont
You feel suddenly superior, powerful, gifted and enlightened, I graduated in Biology many years ago , work with lots of post grads so had decades to get over the fact I am not the most intelligent person on earth.

Nope, screaming at strangers in Asda isnt something I have energy or time for.

If you was licking your trolley handle clean you would get a very British death stare and loud tut.

Just because something has not bee documented does not mean it's not happening.

Science is learning more and more all the time.

Exactly - this is why the view on the risk of fomite transmission has also evolved over time.

Back in March most of the public health messaging was about hands hygiene. Surely, most people still remember Boris washing hands on TV and asking us to sing “Happy Birthday” (twice). This headline was based on our prior experience with other viruses and early research that COVID can survive on surfaces for several days.

However, as time has passed, scientists and health care professionals realised that the risk of direct surface transmission has been exaggerated. No, it is not zero but in comparison to other possible routes (air droplets and aerosols) it is in fact much lower. Many public health bodies (e.g. CDC in the US or ECDC in Europe) have now re-phrased their guidance.

The risk of secondary fomite transmission (where OP may infect another person by touching the contaminated handle and then transferring virus onto a different surface) is therefore highly theoretical and very close to zero (if not zero).

Transmission of coronavirus via fomites might be debatable, but norovirus and other communicable gastric complaints definitely can be passed via touch. Therefore I am not keen to touch trolley handles - especially ones still warm and sweaty

I tend to take some of the hand sanitiser and rub it on the trolley handle and all over my hands because I can't be arsed with using the spray and paper towels and then cleaning my hands. I would have thought the main risk is people coughing/sneezing over the handle whilst not wearing a mask (which I have seen) and whilst I try not to fiddle with my mask in shops I do end up having to wipe the mist off my glasses so it is possible I could transfer the virus near my eyes.

I've never wiped shopping or post but cleaning trolley handles seems little effort for possible big benefits so why wouldn't you do it?

And yes after reading about the poo contamination I may carry on doing it after Covid restrictions are gone. People are really filthy creatures.

I don't bother because I'm then going in the supermarket to touch all the same things everyone else has.
It just seems pointless to me. I don't touch my face and wash my hands when I arrive home.

'Touch' something that may have been touched by someone else other than the shelf stacker.

Not 'hold onto' with sweaty hands for half an hour something that is designed solely to be held onto and has been held onto by a succession of people for HOURS'.

There's a big difference.

I do it for its hygiene benefits, and it reminds me to do all at the other hygiene hints, social distancing, masking, etc. and is a public display of solidarity with what the Victorian government wants us to do.

It's simple thing, costs me nothing and will also relieve the anxiety of those who are put off by actions which potentially compromise their health.

It's simple thing, costs me nothing and will also relieve the anxiety of those who are put off by actions which potentially compromise their health

How does me not washing down my trolley handle affect someone who picks up a different trolley and wipes down the handle?

It's simple thing, costs me nothing

It might do in future when all our bacteria are antibiotic resistant because we insisted on using hand sanitisers for a VIRUS that we could get rid of by WASHING our hands.

YANBU I don't see the pint in doing it either. I do make sure I scrub my hands when I get home. That makes more sense to me

How does me not washing down my trolley handle affect someone who picks up a different trolley and wipes down the handle

That is not what I said and I'm not passing comment on what you do. I'm saying what I do and why.

It might do in future when all our bacteria are antibiotic resistant because we insisted on using hand sanitisers for a VIRUS that we could get rid of by WASHING our hands

If there were hand washing facilities in shops I would use them, as they are preferable to hand sanitisers.

It thought it was the alcohol in hand sanitisers that destroyed the virus. What has that got to do with antibiotics?

@JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn

YANBU I don't see the pint in doing it either. I do make sure I scrub my hands when I get home. That makes more sense to me

Yes, that protects you. It neglects to protect others from what your hands might have come into contact with (like your own body fluids from touching your face whilst you've been out)

If you touch your face and your hands get contaminated, then you touch the trolley handle, the trolley handle can be contaminated or not (ie wiped or not) when the next person uses it. It's got nothing to do with what you do when you get home.

It thought it was the alcohol in hand sanitisers that destroyed the virus. What has that got to do with antibiotics?

I think the poster is confusing the general antibacterial qualities of alcohol/soap/bleach with the routine use of heavy-duty antibacterial chemicals that are in some cleansers/plastics, toothpaste, e.g. triclosan, and are implicated in increased bacterial resistance. I'd be surprised if they're in the hand sanitisers in general use at the moment. Legal in the UK, banned in the US. Being phased out in Au since 2016 but only by manufactures, not the government.

Public health England say that most confirmed cases of covid take place after a supermarket visit.

Supermarket – 18.3%
Secondary school – 12.7%
Primary school – 10.1%
Hospital – 3.6%
Care home – 2.8%
College – 2.4%
Warehouse – 2.2%
Nursery preschool – 1.8%
Pub or bar – 1.6%
Hospitality – 1.5%
University – 1.4%
Manufacture engineering – 1.4%
Household fewer than five – 1.2%
General practice – 1.1%
Gym – 1.1%
Restaurant or cafe – 1.0%

You cough into your hands, touch the trolly, touch items on the shelves, touch the self scanner screen, touch the numbers when putting your pin into pay. Anything that removes covid from items helps lower chances of getting it.

There is guidance around those with covid isolating in their bedroom and using a dedicated loo also. This is about containing covid. There’s also guidance around cleaning the bathroom if sharing with someone with covid. This is to reduce chance of catching

Public health England say that most confirmed cases of covid take place after a supermarket visit.

However, it would be plain wrong to interpret this data as information on places where people got infected.

18.3% of people tested positive for COVID visited a supermarket over 7 days prior to their test. This needs to be compared with the information from the control group (general non-infected population). I am not surprised 1 in 5 people goes to supermarket on a weekly basis - in fact, I would expect this percentage to be even higher.

I am pretty sure 100% (or nearly 100%) of people tested positive also used a loo at home. Does it mean our loos are overflowing with COVID germs and we should avoid them at all costs? What about our beds - surely 100% (or 99%?) of positive cases slept in their bedrooms for several nights before taking the test. What does it tell us about potential risks? The answer is simple - absolutely nothing.

quite.

Also it’s a survey of where people say they have been, not where they actually or additionally might have gone.

People will readily admit they went to Asda, but to meet their brother and two cousins at Auntie Jean’s, not so much.

@doireallyneedaname

You do realise that a huge chunk of COVID transmission is happening in supermarkets, right? This information was released a few weeks ago. It makes perfect sense to be as cautious as possible whilst there.

No, you have misunderstood. 18% of respondents said they had visited a supermarket in the week before they became infected. This does NOT mean that 18% of infections originate in supermarkets.