Govt attempting to force schools to remain open with court order, against advice of PHE

[Bluegreen70]

Just that.

I've never hated any politicians so much

• I accept Covid is rife in some schools, but why should a whole area be punished because some clearly haven’t got the right protocols in place to protect their students and teachers?

Another poster who has swallowed the often repeated covid guidance significantly reduces risk. It really doesn't. Name any other business that has the same number of people in the same space doing the same amount of work as they did before lockdown 1. Most schools bubble along with a few cases or none then cases just explode very quickly.

[quote Crownofthorns]@Notthemessiah

Not wilfully blind, no, just realistic. This situation isn’t going to go away any time soon. Children of all ages need an education and to be in school. I accept that for some that sadly isn’t possible at present but for others it is and they should be allowed to attend.[/quote]
but this is not the way to provide an education. Ad hoc, make do and mend when staff are off, close schools when there are not enough adults to keep them open, send children home repeatedly with no notice to self isolate.

Nor can staff realistically teach in lessons and on line at the same time. Both sets of students get short changed.

If you want a regular, reliable education, then close all schools NOW, open late in January, and allow no more than 10, socially distanced students in any one room, at any time.

This means a rota system, with education in person, and independent, and on line.

@noblegiraffe

some clearly haven’t got the right protocols in place to protect their students and teachers?

What protocol effectively prevents covid spreading in a crowded classroom with no masks?

Not a teacher or an expert, obviously, but looking at some of the things DD’s school are doing - windows wide open in the classroom (kids encouraged to bring in fleeces if they are cold), staggered pick-up and drop-off times, different entry and exit points for the parents, masks on school grounds (and strongly encouraged when waiting outside the school gates). Lots of other things I’m sure. It might just be good luck that we have got to this stage in the term with only one case but I don’t think so. They must be doing something right.

WtF???

DH teaches in one of these London Boroughs. His school had already taken the decision to move online because cases are absolutely rampant there. There are positive cases across all year groups, staff members hospitalised with Covid.

They have followed every bit of government guidance, which is probably why the infection has spiralled out of control. The abysmal policy of only isolating those sitting within 2m of a postive case (despite the fact we know it's an airborne virus and there are many asymptomatic cases) has been the driving force behind the huge transmission rate in secondary schools. It's absolutely disgusting how pupils and staff's health has been taken for granted. Let's pray that it's not discovered some time down the line that there are long-term health impacts from catching Covid at a young age, or I can see legal action being taken.

seriously get some perspective

north west has had triple these figures for months and managed fine! can surely see the north and south divide here!
Liverpool did mass school testing and anecdotally from speaking to other kids and teachers (i'm a sixth form teacher), hardly any cases were found - so even if cases, they weren't led by schools

pure panic.

cases in these areas are 1/3 liverpool had last month

@mrshoho

Well this situation has taken a seriously weird turn! Parents and schools are now stuck between a standoff with dfe and LAs. You just couldn't make this shit up.

More like stuck between Tory government and labour run boroughs

I wonder how many of those shouting for schools to be shut asap will be mixing happily with other households during the permitted days. Out of Christmas and my kids' education I know which one I value more. No bubbles have burst at our school, and there has one positive case amongst staff (not caught within school). I absolutely would not want our council to decrete a blanket school closure based on issues elsewhere. Covid is not the only thing people can suffer and die from.

Gino I understand your anecdotal data about the schools in Liverpool and low rates of infection but some schools DO have ridiculously high rates of infection spreading amongst the school community.

Surely we just be saying this shouldn't have been acceptable for those in the same position up North and not 'London need to get on with it' for want of a better statement?

If it's rife in a school, ANY school they need o be mass testing and the opportunity to close. Those schools where there is low to no infection then remain open and are tested as a second priority.

In China, if a city had a single case they’d shut down every school in the city for a couple of weeks. Here, schools can have dozens of cases and yet the government forces them to stay open! Has the penny dropped yet about how certain countries successfully knocked it on the head while we flail around aimlessly?

@Bluegreen70

But can you not see how that would disadvantage millions of vulnerable children whose parents haven’t got the resources, time or will to educate them at home? For whom school is a refuge? Their only chance to experience any warmth, kindness, a hot meal? What you are proposing is not remotely workable. And what happens after late January, when cases rise again? And in (say) March? As I said upthread, we have to accept that this virus isn’t going anywhere. It would be more realistic to shield the elderly and vulnerable until the vaccine is rolled out properly and let the rest of us get on with it. This virus is only lethal to a tiny, tiny percentage of the population.

@ichundich

I wonder how many of those shouting for schools to be shut asap will be mixing happily with other households during the permitted days. Out of Christmas and my kids' education I know which one I value more. No bubbles have burst at our school, and there has one positive case amongst staff (not caught within school). I absolutely would not want our council to decrete a blanket school closure based on issues elsewhere. Covid is not the only thing people can suffer and die from.

I totally agree. We are not seeing family at Christmas for precisely this reason. I place much more importance on my DD being in school. She has mild SEN and not being in school during the first lockdown was hugely detrimental to her.

My dd's Belgian secondary has moved to distance learning as of today for all years til they break up,on Friday. Prior to that the top 4 years have been 50/50 distance learning since an elongated half term. Numbers have dropped dramatically in Belgium since October. Where I live was at 1800/100k. It's now at 150. Deaths and hospitalisations also dropping. New cases have stabilised, but here restrictions are not relaxed for Xmas.

It might just be good luck that we have got to this stage in the term with only one case but I don’t think so. They must be doing something right.

All schools are doing these things. They don't work.

It would be more realistic to shield the elderly and vulnerable until the vaccine is rolled out properly and let the rest of us get on with it.

Right..... you don't see the problems with implementing that?

@noblegiraffe

Sam Freedman, former education adviser to Michael Gove:

“The DfE have done many dumb things this year but this may be the dumbest. What in the name of God are the playing at?”

Someone has got to sort Department out - we will be the laughing stock of Europe.

Even if the DfE recognised that there was a difference between primary schools and secondary schools - that might help

Not a teacher or an expert, obviously, but looking at some of the things DD’s school are doing - windows wide open in the classroom (kids encouraged to bring in fleeces if they are cold), staggered pick-up and drop-off times, different entry and exit points for the parents, masks on school grounds (and strongly encouraged when waiting outside the school gates). Lots of other things I’m sure. It might just be good luck that we have got to this stage in the term with only one case but I don’t think so. They must be doing something right.

No, really sorry, but it's just luck.

Schools that have had up to 5 periods of isolation have been doing EXACTLY these things. So have schools which have got off relatively lightly. There is no correlation between any of these measures and actual decrease in infections - it is just luck, socio-economic profile of intake and general levels of community infection. And luck, lots of luck.

School near to where I work went from 0 cases to over 500 students isolating (plus many staff) over 1 weekend. Did they change what they were doing? No. Just luck.

I don't think we need a rota system. We need mass testing, tracing and isolating of positive contacts and vaccinations for school staff once those who are in priority groups are vaccinated.

The large majority of children are not being vaccinated so therefore the government must be hoping for some let of herd immunity. If this is the case, we need to keep the staff in the building. Vaccinating them means they hopefully won't need to be off as they will have some immunity.

@Ginogineli

seriously get some perspective

north west has had triple these figures for months and managed fine! can surely see the north and south divide here!
Liverpool did mass school testing and anecdotally from speaking to other kids and teachers (i'm a sixth form teacher), hardly any cases were found - so even if cases, they weren't led by schools

pure panic.

cases in these areas are 1/3 liverpool had last month

And in France, where schools remained open throughout their recent lockdown, cases reduced massively.

@BertNErnie this much is being hinted at today - weekly screening for teachers in England, in new year.

@Barbie222 I'd happily screen weekly if it meant I wasn't potentially spreading the virus and could give the children I teach some stability and continuity of learning.

[quote Barbie222]@BertNErnie this much is being hinted at today - weekly screening for teachers in England, in new year.[/quote]
I presume you mean weekly screening for a few teachers. In secondary. In London. Maybe.

Full weekly screening for all teachers in all schools all over the country would be great BUT would take out whole schools on a really regular basis...

I would be very interested to know if PHE had indeed "advised" schools in Greenwich to close and what form this advice took - I suspect it will not be as clear cut as Greenwich councillors are saying, or not be "formal advice" from the top levels of management in PHE. Remember PHE is a government Agency and downing st/dfe will have a clear handle on what has been said. They will be sure of themselves, hence the letter's saying LAs don't have the power in this instance to order schools to close.

Yes it's ridiculous. I received an email from dc school today that basically said, we're staying open because if we close we could be prosecuted, but if you wish to remove your dc you will not be fined.

The head clearly wants to close. Not surprising really considering that out of 22 classes, 15 are now off isolating (over 2 schools).
As for staying open for the sake of our kids education, dc has told me today that they'll be watching movies every afternoon as a reward for being so well behaved and because it's Christmas.

@Barbie222

It might just be good luck that we have got to this stage in the term with only one case but I don’t think so. They must be doing something right.

All schools are doing these things. They don't work.

It would be more realistic to shield the elderly and vulnerable until the vaccine is rolled out properly and let the rest of us get on with it.

Right..... you don't see the problems with implementing that?

But they do work in many schools - you can’t say they don’t work just because your school or a number of schools have lots of cases.

Yes, there would be problems with implementing sheltered protection (as per the Great Barrington Declaration), however what’s the alternative? For children to have their education constantly disrupted? People also need to take responsibility for themselves. If they are vulnerable, they need to shield. If this isn’t possible for socio-economic reasons the government need to provide support by way of additional benefits/checks at a local level.

And in France, where schools remained open throughout their recent lockdown, cases reduced massively.

Not true. French lycees (schools for ages 15-18) went blended learning with half online etc. during their recent lockdown. This was announced near the beginning of November.

www.thelocal.fr/20201112/french-schools-to-move-more-lessons-online-as-lockdown-continues