Greenwich schools closing tomorrow

[Starch1e]

Leader of Greenwich council tweeted an open letter this afternoon asking schools to close from Tuesday. Our school is complying.
I need a meltdown emoji. Work is stupid f*king busy this week for me and DP and I cannot do it with 4 & 7 year old at home

[quote Mustfly]@2020out teachers and pupils have died? No, they haven't. If a teacher had caught covid at school and died it would have been headline news. Teachers have certainly caught it...then they've recovered. The children I know who have had it have been assymptomatic and only tested because a parent had symptoms.
No, four days maybe isn't vital. But that last week before Christmas, filled with fun with their friends is more important than ever this year at a time when there's precious little else they can do. And Greenwich haven't actually confirmed that the children will return in January. I'm concerned that it will end up creeping into January then Feb. Homeschooling was a disaster, so many kids had next to nothing in the way of support . I know from the two recent self isolations my son had that online teaching remains hopeless, with next to no support offered to students. Repeatedly taking children out of the classroom will ruin their life chances and not one single parent I know wants to see it happen again. And until teachers start screaming for warehouses to be shut, hospitals, supermarkets and many other essentials services staffed by fellow citizens...I honestly have no sympathy. The amount of people who laud themselves for isolating whilst having online shopping delivered...who do they think picks and packs it? More disposable mortals? [/quote]
Yes teachers have died, there was a lady from Wales and a gentleman I can't remember what area he was from.

No, they haven't. If a teacher had caught covid at school and died it would have been headline news.

Yes they have. Some have even been in the news but most haven’t. If they put everyone who had died in the news....
Did you miss the recent death of a 15 year old with no underlying conditions? Shame on you.

This poor people and their families. Have some compassion.

@ChloeDecker I'll clarify...they should stay in as much as possible. As I say, my son has spent four weeks at home but the rest of the term in. My other two children have been in every week. That is a damn sight better than the lockdown earlier in the year. Not perfect, far from ideal, but better. I thank god for the highly sensible, practical head teachers and teachers at the schools who have worked so very hard to do the right thing by the children in their care. My sister works one to one as a TA with children from difficult backgrounds and in many cases their being at school is quite possibly saving lives. The way domestic abuse and child abuse increased during the lockdown is heartbreaking. Those of us who offer safe homes to our children very often just don't realise how terrified and trapped so many children were without the respite of school.

And I gave lots of compassion. Loads. But there are more ways to suffer than covid.

@Starch1e

BlackLamb we're the opposite - live in Lewisham, school in Greenwich. It is political grandstanding, will be interesting to see which other boroughs follow and what DFE says tomorrow. To all the people asking what we would be doing if asked to SI, I'd be screaming and tearing hair out too but at least it would feel justified. We've been exceptionally lucky that there have been no full class closures and no obvious staff shortages. I normally WfH but have to into work 1 day this week for stuff that can only be done on site. Hence screaming into the void.

I can see what you're saying about it feeling justified to have a sudden closure due to SI, but not this, because your school has been OK so far. But there could so easily be a version of you tearing her hair out a few weeks into next term, suddenly faced with a child at home SI for 10 days with zero notice. She might look back and wish more schools had been closed strategically just for these few extra days just before Christmas. This particular week isn't normal even for covid.

have

teachers and pupils have died? No, they haven't.

What new bullshit is this?! Of course they have.

In far lower numbers than most other professions. Comparable to professionals and office workers...many of whom would have been working from home. And no statistics are kept on where they caught it from...the teachers I know who have had it caught it from family members, via household transmission. There is no evidence that teachers are at greater risk than anyone else in the population.

I think some bin men died, and supermarket workers. And a dog walker, a florist and somebody who works in a bakery.

I don’t know how any of them caught it. For all I know, they didn’t catch it at work.

I need to use all of those services in the next 48 hours. I suspect everyone reading this thread needs to use a service of some sort. I probably wouldn’t advocate closing all things, everywhere. Some people, from all professions, in all locations - they’ve all contracted covid.

@Mustfly, where is your evidence? The teachers unions have been asking the government to release data on how many teachers have caught Covid, been hospitalised and died but the government has been suppressing the data at the moment. Everything I can find online is very old and not relevant to this term.

I'm NHS and I'm not arrogant enough to think the teachers are working in safe conditions at the moment. I've seen plenty of teachers catch Covid, most of them have pupils test positive first.

@mustfly
You clearly know what you want but are sounding very ignorant.

When was the last time you read about a non-famous individual who died from covid? It's not headline news anymore. Teachers are equally likely to die from covid as other key workers.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54146451
www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/06/teachers-no-more-likely-than-other-key-workers-to-get-covid-says-ons
mobile.twitter.com/cyclingkev/status/1338184494323544065

Teachers calling for schools to close are also calling for other restrictions. Here's the head of the largest of the much-maligned teaching unions calling for everyone to be given clear information about the risks of Christmas mixing. Why? To protect lives and to protect schools so that they can open in January. mobile.twitter.com/cyclingkev/status/1338184494323544065

I'm not fucking screaming for anything to be shut - schools, warehouses, hospitals. But closing a hospital for 4 days will lead to deaths. Closing a school for 4 days will be inconvenient and a bit sad. Closing a supermarket, probably fine for 4 days, though might cause panic buying and chaos. Closing a warehouse - I guess it depends what it's got in it, right? These things are all different. I'm confident talking about schools because I work on one. What makes you an expert?

@Mustfly

In far lower numbers than most other professions. Comparable to professionals and office workers...many of whom would have been working from home. And no statistics are kept on where they caught it from...the teachers I know who have had it caught it from family members, via household transmission. There is no evidence that teachers are at greater risk than anyone else in the population.

Untrue. See links above. Equal to other key workers.

I live alone. Did I spontaneously generate it in my living room? Or was it maybe the school I work on?

@mincefuckinpies

You can’t see the difference in one year group being out and a whole school being closed?

It's not just one year group being out though is it?

It's different year groups being out over and over again, unpredictably and with zero notice, and schools never able to properly get a handle on infections because of the constraints imposed by DfE so it just goes on and on.

Also your response is very disingenuous.

You said There is a huge difference between your child having to SI, or having D and V, or a fever, or a viral infection that isn’t corona and needing to take time off, and an entire school closing. (my bold)

There is no difference between your child having to SI and your child being unable to attend school because it is shut, except for:

1. If the school is shut it's only 4 days, if your child is isolating it's 14 days.

2. If the school is shut you get a day's notice. If your child has to SI you get no notice.

3. If the school is shut your child is still allowed out. If they have to SI then they have to stay indoors.

You invited people to think about the impact on their child and then when you were challenged on this you immediately switched to a population-level argument about a year group vs. whole school closure.

No, if your child is not in school it makes completely no difference to you and your child whether the whole school is out or just their bubble (except that teachers stand a better chance of providing effective home learning if it's a planned closure) - the fact is that your child is not able to go to school.

Recently I have noticed lots of people making slippery arguments that switch from the individual to the population level and back again, depending on whatever is convenient for the point they are trying to make.

I don't believe they don't know what they are doing.

@Mustfly

In far lower numbers than most other professions. Comparable to professionals and office workers...many of whom would have been working from home. And no statistics are kept on where they caught it from...the teachers I know who have had it caught it from family members, via household transmission. There is no evidence that teachers are at greater risk than anyone else in the population.

This is true

@Mustfly you said no teacher or child has died from covid. -5 minutes later youre saying actually they have in smaller numbers than other professions.

Do you have any sort of evidence for these statements you are making? Other than data from when schools were closed to the majority...

I expect when you find the data that clearly says teachers aRe catching covid in very high nunbers, youll tell us they must all be catching it at tesco

This is true

Its actually not true. But i look forward to you proving your evidence.

No it's not. Same as other key workers. www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/06/teachers-no-more-likely-than-other-key-workers-to-get-covid-says-ons

[quote 2020out]No it's not. Same as other key workers. www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/06/teachers-no-more-likely-than-other-key-workers-to-get-covid-says-ons[/quote]
@truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum
And @mustfly for good measure

Look, I get it, I want schools open too. But you can't just make things up.

@Jenifirtree yes, the ONS stats are what I'm looking at. They're very clear that teaching is not a high risk occupation. Unlike bus driving, but there seems less of a clamour from bus drivers to stop providing an essential service.
On a purely anecdotal level, if teachers really were at greater risk than other occupations, I'm not sure that wouldn't be noticeable to me when I have three school age children and know scores of children and numerous teachers from schools over a wide area.
Yes kids and teachers are catching it, but they are not getting seriously ill and dying from it in great numbers. Life is a risky business...as I say I work in an emergency service, I see those risks closer than most every day.
But in the long term, depriving children of education carries many many risks too. Before all this people on mumsnet went mad if anyone suggested taking a week's holiday in term time. Now months leaving kids trapped indoors with poor online provision and no social interaction is a price worth paying.
I get that others disagree with me and I understand why. I guess for me education is a red line. I accept the shitty health service I'm getting at the moment for my auto immune condition. I accept the lack of dentist care for my three children. I accept their sadness at missing out on sports competitions they'd trained for. I accept my retired parents who've worked hard all their lives missing out on the travel and adventures they'd saved for. It's all shit but it is what it is.
But children have to be educated if the future is to be brighter and they are to emerge from this mentally well and balanced . Just my opinion

@Mustfly Months? I thought we were talking about 4 days? In a place where infection rates are doubling every 4 days and a whole load of kids are about to mix with their grandparents freely for 5 days over Christmas.

Can you genuinely not see that reducing the rates in the community overall will increase the chances of our kids being able to stay at school for longer?

@mustfly

Your opinion is what it is. But it's the false facts that I'm questioning and you don't want to address them.

You're referring to the ONS data from summer? When schools weren't fully open and were socially distanced? It's not relevant to schools this term, is it?

Bus drivers have reduced their service and had safety measures put in. That's all teachers in high risk areas are asking for. They can reduce our service by a few days of remote learning, thus protecting all staff and children, and reducing the risk of another wave that leads to another lock down and wider school closures.

This is the ONS data you are referring to @Mustfly:

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/6november2020#age-analysis-of-the-number-of-people-in-england-who-had-covid-19

Why have they separated out all of the teachers? What does teaching support staff mean? TAs? Should they be in the same category as the teachers given that they are in the same place at the same time? Do you think that separating them all out and lumping together ALL OTHER KEYWORKERS is a bit crap?

That 'teacher of unknown type' category looks either very lazy to me (why are they unknown?) or deliberately massaging figures.

To be fair, I'd not seen that ONS data, which is recent. Thanks for the link.

Genuinely baffling that "other professions" is higher than "key workers." Which other professions, I wonder? Surely many other professions are WFH so should be very low risk.