Does anyone think there could yet be a U turn over Christmas?

[HallFloor]

At least in some areas.

It seems madness to me, after having to admit things are out of control in Schools (in London and SE, if not elsewhere) to positively encourage multi generational gatherings over Christmas.

I also wonder how many people plan to have their 3 household bubble and how many will decided it's too big a risk. My parents have said they're having Christmas on their own and whilst elderly, they have no additional risk factors and are not normally anxious.

Schools here are already gearing up for carnage in the New Year. We are currently debating going back on a remote timetable.

The vast vast majority of people aren't selfish, or out to screw other people to their own advantage. They're mostly not blind or dumb. They're just other humans in different situations trying to do what they assume is the right thing

I agree with this, and it's a point that isn't made often enough on these boards.

In my circle of family and friends, no household/family is meeting with anyone outside their bubble.

I'm sorry about your mum, NoSquirrels.

@FriedPeach great, but why should my DC miss f2f schooling? Why should they have to miss out on a family Christmas and then be at risk in school or miss schooling. I don't need to be furloughed, I've worked at home since March.

You talked about staying away from the vulnerable. You actually want them to stay away from you.

No, I think they’ll make the judgement that the Christmas bubbles are better than what people will do if they try to impose hard rules.

@MercyBooth it depends on how conspiracy theory you want to get, yes they might do at the last minute to keep pumping in money to the economy, or it might be because they yet again want to blame the public. In the ooohh naughty children, we offered you this if you could behave but since you couldn't you are not getting it, now go sit on the naughty step. No seeing your friends, if only you have behaved. Then we are going to get the politicians who have all announced their plans, say well it is the same for us. Bollocks is it, the same. Same storm, except they are in a cruise ship, rammed full of food with a full staff while most of the British Public is stuck on an inflatable raft with a hole in it and only a sieve to get the water out

@AcornAutumn I would guess that if they were going to do it, a few examples will be made, but I think like the rest of the 9 months the majority are following the rules, but that doesn't make good press, the police busting up the parties do

Surely you either understand that mixing is a risk, so won’t do it at all. Or you don’t believe it’s a risk, so you will mix. Why then, would the ‘mixers’ just stick to 3? I’m presuming they don’t ‘see a risk’ if they are choosing to mix with those they care about the most!!! Just because you stick to the magic 3 households does not make it covid safe for the individuals concerned - it just helps stem the spread on a national scale.

I don't think the rules will change. I also don't think that many people are taking up the extra bubbles.

We are the only ones I know forming a new bubble for Xmas (others are single parents going to their existing support bubble)

I’m presuming they don’t ‘see a risk’ if they are choosing to mix with those they care about the most!!!

This is the bit I struggle with in all the "why should/shouldn't I" posts.

"I've/my children have been forced to mix with 100s, so why should we sacrifice Christmas with family?" They've acknowledged the risk, complaining about being exposed to it.

Isn't it obvious why?

@Mischance

I hope very much that they do reverse the decision - it is madness. I think they have eased the precautions because they do not think people will adhere to them and there is no way of policing that. But the truth is that people will die because of it.

I know of 3 families who are getting together at Christmas and there will be 14 people in the house. How utterly mad is that? Perfect conditions for spreading the virus.

Me too. Really hope they do other as January and February will be awful if not.

It’s not only the carnage that follows from those few days but the rest of it. Those who will continue to mix flaming it’s ok as they could at Christmas, the ones who don’t self isolate and think it’s fine to go shopping or take the children out, sending sick children into schools magically being able to tell it’s not covid without a test etc.

@beckypv

Surely you either understand that mixing is a risk, so won’t do it at all. Or you don’t believe it’s a risk, so you will mix. Why then, would the ‘mixers’ just stick to 3? I’m presuming they don’t ‘see a risk’ if they are choosing to mix with those they care about the most!!! Just because you stick to the magic 3 households does not make it covid safe for the individuals concerned - it just helps stem the spread on a national scale.

I think having the limit will help. Like in a 30mph area you might drive at 40mph but not 50mph and definitely not 70mph (although there will be some selfish idiots who always do). I don’t think people’s perception of risk is as binary as you’re making it out to be, and I think most people probably will respect most of the rules most of the time, as they have throughout.

Christmas mixing is still a risk, and to be fair the government and scientists have been absolutely clear about it, but that’s got to be balanced against the harm done of spending Christmas alone. It’s difficult but I don’t think realistically they could have not had some provision for families to meet in as safe a way as possible.

I’m still negotiating with mine. We don’t have anyone particularly vulnerable in the family but we’re too many households and because some are in tier three, others in tier two a long drive away we can’t just meet outdoors according to those rules. We haven’t seen each other at all in months and months, so we want to work something out within the rules with as small a risk as possible. It’s difficult. I’m sure a lot of other families are having similar conversations.

@MercyBooth

Why wouldn't there be a group that are sticking to the "Christmas easing" the government have outlined

Because there is not enough critical thinking going on.

I know quite a lot of people who have been sticking to the rules throughout and are using the Christmas easing to visit relatives they haven't been able to see for ages as they've been in Tier 2/3 areas (and live far enough away that outside visits aren't practical). In most cases both they, and their relatives are isolating for as long as possible beforehand (they are not people with school age children, so that doesn't come into it). So, just based on my own experience, this is a reasonably sized sub-group, and the sort of thing I think the government/medical advisors hoped that people would stick to when they announced Christmas easing.

It is complete madness and some people will only hear “three households can mix at Xmas” and think this means it’s perfectly safe to cram a dozen for more people into their tiny dining room. People will have been to work and school in the run up and are allowed to visit crowded pubs so there are plenty of ways to pick up the virus before Christmas and unknowingly pass it on. Even if you have been following “the rules”

Why they couldn't just say in the first place 'rules relaxed over Christmas weekend to allow x and self isolate first'.

The 5 day free for all was always madness and we'll all pay for it in the new year.

I hope so. We aren't mixing this Christmas. As a single parent who can't work from home with a primary age DC I'm dreading the school disruption in January with all this mixing. I will lose pay every time we have to isolate.

The 5 day free for all was always madness and we'll all pay for it in the new year.

The whole point of the three households thing is it tries to stop it from becoming a total free for all, and they’ve said time and again that it’s still a risk so it should be done as carefully as possible.

I hope there isn't a U turn. I don't fancy spending Christmas on my own. I think England need to follow Wales and do home learning from next week. Then parents can make their own decisions on isolating their children ahead of meeting family.

No, I think they will move more places into T3 on the 16th and possibly tighten T3 rules. Very few places will move out of T3 if any. And in Jan we will basically all be in T3 or a lockdown.

That said I don't think they should do a U turn because the evidence suggests most people are already bending the rules (I know I am) because it's the only way to stay sane. We can't keep yo yoing in and out of lockdowns, it is quite obviously not working!

@Hapixmas that would be a disaster for many working parents at an often busy time of year. Those of us who can't work from home will be left in the shit. I'd rather forgo seeing family for one year than lose a week's pay when I already only earn £8.75 an hour.

I really hope here’s a u-turn.

It’s one Christmas. One. People need to grow up, stop whining and be sensible.

Our school closed yesterday so we have two weeks to isolate before hand now. We usually have 15 for Christmas but we are only seeing my parents this year.

Many are assessing their own risk now regardless of what government say

@PaddyF0dder

I really hope here’s a u-turn.

It’s one Christmas. One. People need to grow up, stop whining and be sensible.

That is so unfair. Families have found it really hard. Because of being on the wrong side of the England Wales border and people being in local lockdowns, it’s been months since I’ve seen anyone. It isn’t whining. It has been awful.

This isn’t just “one Christmas”. It’s one Christmas on the back of months of separation and the prospect of more to come. Not fucking whining.

Isn't it obvious why?

No it isn’t obvious to me why it is acceptable for me to spend Monday lunchtime in a corridor with 100s of pushing and shoving teens, Tuesday lunchtime sat in a room with 5 other adults socially distanced for a meeting and yet morally reprehensible for me to (more than a week later) sit socially distant from my non vulnerable family members in their house.

@beckypv

Surely you either understand that mixing is a risk, so won’t do it at all. Or you don’t believe it’s a risk, so you will mix. Why then, would the ‘mixers’ just stick to 3? I’m presuming they don’t ‘see a risk’ if they are choosing to mix with those they care about the most!!! Just because you stick to the magic 3 households does not make it covid safe for the individuals concerned - it just helps stem the spread on a national scale.

It’s not a binary. I don’t think that if I spend time at Christmas with a family other than my own, and they only spend it with our bubble, that means both families have decided Fuck it, let’s throw all the previous months caution out of the window and party like it’s fucking 1999.

Because I’m not stupid. And neither is the rest of my family. We can all see that there’s no big increase in risk to them or us. Yes, there is a small increase. But we’ve adjusted our circumstances to reduce that risk and we’re willing to take it. And we won’t pass it on to other people as we’re conscious of avoiding that via our COVID-cautious behaviour both in the run-up to Christmas and afterwards.

There will always be people who break the rules. But they’d do it anyway. Lots and lots and lots of people think like me and my family. Really, there’s loads of people just “trying to do the right thing” out there. We’re just not that interesting to report on, we’re not headline grabbers.

The rules exist to keep the spread of the virus at bay and avoid overwhelming the health services.

If loads of people don’t want to mix, brilliant. Thank you for making it safer for everyone who does want a small, risk-assessed window of opportunity. We’ll be sensible about it. Save your ire and frothing for people who always break rules regardless. And vote for a government who prioritises education. Write to your MP. Because better education = less poverty and poor life choices = better chance people will behave in line with the law.

It’s one Christmas. One. People need to grow up, stop whining and be sensible

And what if it’s going to be your last Christmas? Due to one of the million ways to die that are not Covid?