Does anyone think there could yet be a U turn over Christmas?

[HallFloor]

At least in some areas.

It seems madness to me, after having to admit things are out of control in Schools (in London and SE, if not elsewhere) to positively encourage multi generational gatherings over Christmas.

I also wonder how many people plan to have their 3 household bubble and how many will decided it's too big a risk. My parents have said they're having Christmas on their own and whilst elderly, they have no additional risk factors and are not normally anxious.

Schools here are already gearing up for carnage in the New Year. We are currently debating going back on a remote timetable.

Isn't that why it's dangerous? (I'm in school too) For every child/adult currently in school we'll be potentially exposing 2 other households who thus far have been protected from it.

Well yes I understand that’s the theory. But there are over 1000 households at my place of work. Plus the 60 or so each of my children interact with on a daily basis.

If I catch it then I’m an unacceptable risk to everyone while contagious and before symptoms start and yet I must continue to mix with huge numbers of people.

Obviously I take precautions but I’m quite capable of taking those same precautions with my own family.

NB: I fully intend to follow all rules at Christmas as I have throughout. I just resent being forced into a room with 30 households and no windows one day and told I’m murdering my parents for wanting to sit in a perfectly well ventilated family home the next.

"I would predict xmas will fall into two groups. Group 1, who don’t socialise at all (why risk it now), and group 2, who do what they like"

Why wouldn't there be a group that are sticking to the "Christmas easing" the government have outlined?

I won't "do what I like" but if it's allowed I'll see my parents and ILs for the 5 days

I think that would depend on how important you feel your job is AppleKatie. The way I see it we've chosen the job, it's a vital job and that's why we've had to keep doing it (like plenty of others) but we can't have infinite contacts so have to reduce them elsewhere.

No because no one will adhere to a ban anyway.

This weekend I’m travelling from my tier 2 area to stay with my 76 year old mother and take her and my ECV uncle out for dinner in a restaurant.

Why? Both me and him indoors have had it (confirmed)

My uncle acknowledges he’s not going to live to 100 - heart valve replacement, uncontrolledT2 and cancer

My mother has outlived all her family including two brothers who died from heart failure and the other was murdered. Ironically I caught covid after springing her from hospital in May when she was in for sepsis. They would not discharge her without a care package in place unless there was someone at home. I went to fetch her from a ward with covid + patients.

They frankly don’t give a shit about covid as life is for living.

After that, we’re going to Scotland to spend Christmas with the in-laws. Two single parent nieces, my sil and bil and their single son. In ten years we’ve never been there because there was never room at the inn at Xmas until dfil died and freed up a room.

I’m more likely to be killed going up the motorway than from covid (given I’ve survived it) and everyone in our circles have the view that what we currently are expected to do is not living but existing.

Remember - death comes to us all

Possibly, but no one will take any notice.

My mother has already said that she prefers to stay in her bubble (my brother lives much closer). We're staying at home and not mixing, apart from Christmas Eve walk with friends. There was never any way we were going to combine households, alcohol etc. - it's madness, imo.

Why wouldn't there be a group that are sticking to the "Christmas easing" the government have outlined

Because there is not enough critical thinking going on.

I'll eat my hat if there's a U turn. There would be mass rebellion. Thee could well be a strict lockdown in January though.

@MercyBooth

Maybe the critical thinking is in the people not blindly following the rules?

OP “ No idea where I picked it up.”

Virus gonna virus.

I hope you feel better ASAP.

Transplanted “ Ironically I caught covid after springing her from hospital in May when she was in for sepsis. They would not discharge her without a care package in place unless there was someone at home. I went to fetch her from a ward with covid + patients.”

Lack of proper separation of covid patients is giving me the rage.

If there is, they won't announce it till as close to Christmas as they can get, or rather it will be leaked on a Sunday on twitter

@Sobeyondthehills Because they will want people to carry on spending the money first? When they announced it at the eleventh hour with Eid there were loads saying they wouldnt dare try it at Christmas. I wonder who will be eating their words.

@Sobeyondthehills

If there is, they won't announce it till as close to Christmas as they can get, or rather it will be leaked on a Sunday on twitter

I wonder if they will actually police it though

people will have paid for transport etc.

No I don’t think they’ll stop the three household thing

Even if more people decide not to do it

We have very draconian household mixing rules in the UK. Some people haven't been allowed to see their family inside since March. It isn't realistic to expect people to maintain that for over a year when they are at negligible personal risk.

Most other European countries e.g. France, Germany haven't had the same long term bans on household mixing, in some cases because this wouldn't be permissible under their constitution. I think if we saw a similar legal challenge targeted at the ban on household mixing in private homes in the UK the courts may well find that it breaches our human rights law too.

While in theory three households could be a large number of people in many cases it won't be. I'm planning to see my parents, whom I'm in a support bubble with anyway, and my sister. There will be six of us, which was allowed anyway until November and is still allowed in tier 1. Many people regularly mix with this number of people at work, school etc.

I think Christmas looks "crazy" only because we have adjusted to a normality where it is illegal to see your family.

The chances of actually having covid and passing it on and it severally affecting the person who catches it are still very low for most people when assessed on an individual level. I don't think that it is selfish for me to see my family when there is around a 1 in 2000 chance that I actually have asymptomatic covid in my area (obviously I wouldn't see anyone if I had symptoms) and an even lower chance of passing it on in a way which severally affects anyone. There is around a 1 in 50 chance of dying from non-covid causes each year when you are in your seventies so it is much more likely that my dad dies before seeing me and his grandson again than that he gets covid from me. He doesn't want that and nor do I.

There's nothing magic about the household unit either - maybe everyone should celebrate Christmas alone in separate rooms.

Chessie “ I think if we saw a similar legal challenge targeted at the ban on household mixing in private homes in the UK the courts may well find that it breaches our human rights law too.”

Simon Dolan and Francis Hoar have taken it to court. No luck so far. They are heading for the Supreme Court now but I’m not optimistic.

In the first hearing, the judge thought zoom or telephone was sufficient interaction.

I lost my 54 year old uncle to COVID in May. No underlying health problems, seven weeks on a ventilator with no one allowed to visit until the end, when his wife was allowed to be with him when they turned it off and he slipped away.
We are all devastated he left behind two beautiful teenage girls. We won't be mixing this Christmas. It can wait. Protecting my loved ones by not taking unnecessary risks is my priority. Just because you can mix doesn't mean you have to and I hope this message is reinforced before Christmas. I'm so tired of hearing people say that they are going to do what they want to do and won't have their Christmas taken away from them. Better that than what we have had to face.

Just because you were allowed to go abroad in the summer didnt mean you had to. I suspect plenty did though going by the lack of threads about it on this board.

We are spending Christmas with my mum who is already in our support bubble and has been throughout all this. We won’t be having anyone else as feel the risk is simply too high. Most people I speak to are having 1 household only.

@Chocoholic1972 Im sorry to hear about your uncle but right now my dad is up to something which will be to my mums detriment. There is more going on in ppls lives than Covid.

I don’t think they will change the rules. Lots are looking forward to meeting with family. Yes 3 large family’s will mean a lot of people, but from what I read lots are just doing small family celebrations rather than large ones

@FriedPeach

No- they would simply be ignored. The vast majority have had enough now and want their lives back (while of course taking sensible precautions such as staying away from the extremely vulnerable).

And yet they'll be sending their DC back into school a week or so later to mix with children who are ECV or have parents who are ECV. Any chance you would keep your DC home for 2 weeks after the Christmas mixing period?

@Mousehole10

I really hope not. But then I don’t have schoil children. It would probably be sensible to say everyone with school children shouldn’t see other households.

I would, in that case, need to "break the rules".

I follow the rules to the best of my ability. There have been grey areas (allowed by law).

I am extremely sympathetic towards those who have lost people unexpectedly to Covid.

I lost my mum - somewhat expectedly, but where there is life there is hope had served well as a mantra for many years - to cancer this year.

That was fucking shit. (Understatement.) It didn't matter it was inevitable she would die sometime - she died THIS year, this fucking shitty year.

But that doesn't make it easier to "follow the rules". It makes it harder in loads of ways, quite frankly.

And there are thousands of people like me, trying to weigh up the risks vs benefits vs wants vs needs of the recently bereaved and the socially isolated and the emotionally fucking done.

You can say "I don't want to kill my elderly parents/grandparents/etc" til the cows come home and I'd agree on all the points of principle but when you've already lost one of them, recently, you feel fucking damned if you're going to blindly follow the "rules" for a miniscule public health risk but a massive personal sanity saviour.

The vast vast majority of people aren't selfish, or out to screw other people to their own advantage. They're mostly not blind or dumb. They're just other humans in different situations trying to do what they assume is the right thing.

So if the government would like to announce a U-turn on Christmas travel, they can - in the best MN tradition - FOTTFSOF and then keep on fucking off until they meet themselves coming back.

From a health/ virology point of view yes there should be a u turn over Christmas.

But they won’t do it. Too many people will disobey and when there is likely to be such low compliance with no way of enforcing, there’s just no point. It would cause too much conflict.