Once we're all vaccinated...

[MissEllaWater]

...or most of us are anyway, do you think that self isolating/track and trace/all that jazz will still be a thing? And fines and so on if you don't comply? I'm not talking about in the next few months, more like in a year or two when it's all bedded in. Surely if the most vulnerable can be protected, we won't need to be quite so vigilant, inasmuch as we won't have to SI for ages if we've been in contact with a positive case?

@Siepie

I expect self-isolating when you have covid will exist long term. Maybe some form of track and trace too, since there is already contact tracing for certain other illnesses, e.g. bacterial meningitis. But with many fewer people getting covid, it would become a rare event.

I expect that other things like social distancing, bans on gatherings, and whole school 'bubbles' being sent home will stop within the next year.

But why? Why do we we need to isolate when it's not dangerous generally to those of us who won't get offered a vaccination, and those it is dangerous to will be vaccinated so why would we need to isolate? Who is that benefiting?

Actually the only thing I want to continue from this is the ending of ‘presenteeism’. People need to work from home if they’re ill. Managers and workplaces need to facilitate this.

But why? Why do we we need to isolate when it's not dangerous generally to those of us who won't get offered a vaccination, and those it is dangerous to will be vaccinated so why would we need to isolate? Who is that benefiting?

It would benefit those for whom the vaccine hasn't worked, or those who haven't been vaccinated but could still end up getting ill. Most people are vaccinated against mumps, but the NHS/PHE ask people to avoid work or school for 5 days if they have it. The government recommend children don't go to school for 48 hours after vomiting or diarrhoea, and that's rarely dangerous.

Maybe it wouldn't be the same long, legally enforced isolation we have now. Just a request not to go to school, work or anywhere non-essential for 7 days, for example.

But why? Why do we we need to isolate when it's not dangerous generally to those of us who won't get offered a vaccination, and those it is dangerous to will be vaccinated so why would we need to isolate? Who is that benefiting?

Some people won't be vaccinated (i.e. certain medical conditions). No one knows how long the vaccine lasts either. No vaccine is 100% protection.

Well given that a) the vaccination is not 100% effective, and b) not everyone will be vaccinated, i think talk of returning to normal is crazy...
What about the under 50yr old BAME community, what about those older that can't be vaccinated? Are they to stay indoors forever, while everyone carries on as we did before 2020..
Oh, and if youre in the 10-5% that the vaccine doesn't work for, tough shit..

@IcedPurple

SD will become the norm for many years

SD means that whole swathes of the economy - such as transport, tourism, entertainment and hospitality - will not be viable. That means a loss of millions of jobs and billions of £ in tax revenue. It's not going to continue beyond next year, no matter how desperate you are for it to do so. However, you may lock yourself up as long as you wish.

There are different levels of social distancing. I think that in some form, it will continue in some situations for the longer term. There will be a lot of people who are simply not happy about being moved around like cattle or crowded in like sardines. Businesses/venues, etc., may well have to get used to people wanting to be spread out a little more if they want their business. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if there are laws/regulations put into place to prescribe the amount of space needed in confined places, i.e. something like a square metre of space per person, so if, say, a pub or restaurant has an area of 100 square metres, then it's maximum capacity is 100 people. I don't think that we'll keep the 2 metre requirement, but I do expect something else to stop over-crowding in public places, venues, public transport, etc. We have to remember that Covid is the first pandemic and that it's almost inevitable there'll be another, so we have to treat it as a massive wake up call to be better prepared for the next one.

Isolating with covid obviously relies on people testing if they have a temp or cough and staying indoors until the results are back, so I’m not sure how long that will realistically go on for, given all the added complications of getting time off work etc.

I do hope as mentioned that our cultural attitude to having to turn up to work ill shifts a bit though.

Covid is the first pandemic????

Er it's not
Difference is this is the first one with mass hysteria, sweeping removal of our rights and freedoms

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if there are laws/regulations put into place to prescribe the amount of space needed in confined places,

I think there are already such laws, but I doubt new ones will be introduced.

Restaurants, pubs, theatres etc need a certain number of bums on seats to be viable. Continued SD would mean most will simply go out of business, with the loss of millions of jobs. If there really is this great demand to be spaced out from your fellow human beings, then those who want this will have to pay extra for the privilege, because such a model simply isn't profitable for most businesses.

We have to remember that Covid is the first pandemic

Huh?

You've never heard of the Spanish Flu, the Black Death, SARS, or any of the other many pandemics throughout history? Life got back to normal after them too.

@Jellykat

Well given that a) the vaccination is not 100% effective, and b) not everyone will be vaccinated, i think talk of returning to normal is crazy... What about the under 50yr old BAME community, what about those older that can't be vaccinated? Are they to stay indoors forever, while everyone carries on as we did before 2020.. Oh, and if youre in the 10-5% that the vaccine doesn't work for, tough shit..

But if a vaccine makes enough difference that the NHS can easily cope with any cases that require treatment then surely it will be seen in the same way as flu? Vulnerable categories of people get the flu vaccine each year yet many still die from it (30000 per year in the UK) but we don’t SD or have restrictions. I’m not saying I disagree with your point btw, but I think realistically society will begin to treat it like flu once a vaccine has been rolled out widely.

@Jellykat

Well given that a) the vaccination is not 100% effective, and b) not everyone will be vaccinated, i think talk of returning to normal is crazy... What about the under 50yr old BAME community, what about those older that can't be vaccinated? Are they to stay indoors forever, while everyone carries on as we did before 2020.. Oh, and if youre in the 10-5% that the vaccine doesn't work for, tough shit..

There will be other vaccines and other treatments. The amount of progress made in one single year has been staggering and we are learning more about the virus and how to deal with it all the time.

Life is full of risk and there are all sorts of nasty illnesses out there, many much more lethal than Covid. Why should society and the economy be put on hold indefinitely for this one illness? If people feel they are at hight risk, they should take the relevant precautions but they cannot ask everyone else to do the same on their behalf.

@Jellykat

Well given that a) the vaccination is not 100% effective, and b) not everyone will be vaccinated, i think talk of returning to normal is crazy... What about the under 50yr old BAME community, what about those older that can't be vaccinated? Are they to stay indoors forever, while everyone carries on as we did before 2020.. Oh, and if youre in the 10-5% that the vaccine doesn't work for, tough shit..

But no vaccines are 100% effective. The 95%-ish that the Pfizer vaccine seems to be is amazingly, staggeringly, fantastically good for a vaccine. You don't need it to work for everyone, and you don't need everyone to take it, you just need enough people to take it that R drops below 1 and then the epidemic will fizzle out.

@tortoiseshell1985

Covid is the first pandemic????

Er it's not
Difference is this is the first one with mass hysteria, sweeping removal of our rights and freedoms

Spanish flu similar isolation procedures were implemented According to the data and analysis, cities that adopted early, broad isolation and prevention measures closing of schools and churches, banning of mass gatherings, mandated mask wearing, case isolation and disinfection/hygiene measures had lower disease and mortality rates.

But I agree with pp once hospitalisation reduces we won’t continue as economic impact is too high. We don’t need everyone to be vaccinated to drop SD. Just a high enough amount.

Because not everyone will get the vaccine. SD will become the norm for many years and I am glad because people already spread germs every winter as it is. Large events will return but with small crowds and lots of sanitizing. People will wear masks when sick like they do in Asia, no more shaking hands thank god. The likelihood of new viruses has increased so we will be encouraged to stay vigilant to protect the more vulnerable. It's definitely a sacrifice but there is no going back

In your brave new world of "let's SD for years", if I can't shake hands with anyone, am I going to be permitted to hug anyone who I don't live with? Y'know, people like my family and close friends? Or are you expecting me to continue to not go near them forever?

@RichardMarxisinnocent

Because not everyone will get the vaccine. SD will become the norm for many years and I am glad because people already spread germs every winter as it is. Large events will return but with small crowds and lots of sanitizing. People will wear masks when sick like they do in Asia, no more shaking hands thank god. The likelihood of new viruses has increased so we will be encouraged to stay vigilant to protect the more vulnerable. It's definitely a sacrifice but there is no going back

In your brave new world of "let's SD for years", if I can't shake hands with anyone, am I going to be permitted to hug anyone who I don't live with? Y'know, people like my family and close friends? Or are you expecting me to continue to not go near them forever?

I would really be pleased if it became socially acceptable not to shake hands and hug virtual strangers. I hate it. Just no need at all. Yet, before covid, you were made out to be some kind of weirdo if you back away and say no.

I would really be pleased if it became socially acceptable not to shake hands and hug virtual strangers. I hate it. Just no need at all. Yet, before covid, you were made out to be some kind of weirdo if you back away and say no.

I can live with not shaking hands and have no particular interest in hugging virtual strangers, but I do want to be able to hug my family and friends, the people I love and care about. Is that acceptable to you?

@RichardMarxisinnocent

I would really be pleased if it became socially acceptable not to shake hands and hug virtual strangers. I hate it. Just no need at all. Yet, before covid, you were made out to be some kind of weirdo if you back away and say no.

I can live with not shaking hands and have no particular interest in hugging virtual strangers, but I do want to be able to hug my family and friends, the people I love and care about. Is that acceptable to you?

Yes, of course, that's why I said "virtual strangers" in my post - I presume your family and friends aren't virtual strangers???

@Jellykat

Well given that a) the vaccination is not 100% effective, and b) not everyone will be vaccinated, i think talk of returning to normal is crazy... What about the under 50yr old BAME community, what about those older that can't be vaccinated? Are they to stay indoors forever, while everyone carries on as we did before 2020.. Oh, and if youre in the 10-5% that the vaccine doesn't work for, tough shit..

Was any extra risk to BAME debunked months ago?

@ILoveYoga

As was in the briefing the other night, covid isn’t going away. We’re going to have to live with it in society. So society will have to change from what was the norm before particularly as this pandemic has shown there are many selfish and entitled people who think wearing a mask/refuse to be socially distanced, anti vaxers etc is more about their civil liberties rather than care and concern for their fellow humans.

So gatherings of fewer people (ban on large gatherings - or health standards for larger gatherings ) and mask wearing where social distance is hard to maintain should remain as well as more sanitising/cleaning.

Jeez!! Let's hope not

Yes, of course, that's why I said "virtual strangers" in my post - I presume your family and friends aren't virtual strangers???

Well in that case your original answer was completely irrelevant to RichardMarx's question, wasn't it?

This is the second thread where I've seen someone say that they think social distancing should remain for strangers, but not family and friends. But there is no possible medical reason for that, that's just idly wishing for a change in social conventions, which is a reasonable thing to daydream about but not to expect to actually happen. If most people disliked a social convention it wouldn't be the done thing in the first place!

@Jellykat

Well given that a) the vaccination is not 100% effective, and b) not everyone will be vaccinated, i think talk of returning to normal is crazy... What about the under 50yr old BAME community, what about those older that can't be vaccinated? Are they to stay indoors forever, while everyone carries on as we did before 2020.. Oh, and if youre in the 10-5% that the vaccine doesn't work for, tough shit..

Well yes actually. If some people want to completely protect themselves from covid they will have to stay inside forever. Its not going away, its endemic in our society and a vaccine won't make it disappear. What will actually happen is the most vulnerable (those on the gov list) will get vaccinated, everyone else will get on with their lives with the knowledge there is a small risk from covid, just as there is a small risk from many other diseases. Of course there will be some people who the vaccine doesn't work for, and some young healthy people who get it badly or die, but that is the same for every other illness. If people don't want to accept that risk then they are free to stay in forever, but there is no way I am!

@Jellykat what would you prefer to happen, given that the virus isn't going to go away? Everyone stay in forever?

Does nobody realise that we will never be 'all vaccinated'? Do you realise how many people are in the country, and how long it would take to vaccinate everyone? Do you know that this vaccination needs to be repeated at least annually, potentially more often depending on lasting benefit?

We will never be able to get around the whole population. We'll get older and vulnerable vaccinated, plus NHS staff and potentially key workers. Over 60s if we're lucky. But by the time that's done, it'll be time for the next one, and the cycle starts again.

It's just not possible. That many vaccines cannot be produced or administered every single year.

It's not happening.

@LindaEllen

Does nobody realise that we will never be 'all vaccinated'? Do you realise how many people are in the country, and how long it would take to vaccinate everyone? Do you know that this vaccination needs to be repeated at least annually, potentially more often depending on lasting benefit?

We will never be able to get around the whole population. We'll get older and vulnerable vaccinated, plus NHS staff and potentially key workers. Over 60s if we're lucky. But by the time that's done, it'll be time for the next one, and the cycle starts again.

It's just not possible. That many vaccines cannot be produced or administered every single year.

It's not happening.

Exactly, the people who need it most will be vaccinated and everyone else won't be but will only have a small risk from covid so we will all be able to get o with our lives with no restrictions. Hopefully from Easter once the most vulnerable are vaccinated.