Vaccine- can anyone explain long term side effects to me

[SaveWaterDrinkGin]

As the title says really.

I’m delighted the vaccine has been approved today, and I’m 99% sure l’ll have it if and when it’s offered to me. I’ve read all of the research and understand how it’s been developed so quickly (and safely) but can someone who understands this kind of science explain to me about long term side effects please? I read something that said vaccines don’t usually have long term side effects, they usually tend to present themselves within a few months of being vaccinated (in which case presumably they would have been picked up by the clinical trials), but I’m keen to understand more about why this is.

The 'long term side effect' question has been put propagated by anti-vax, posting some stupid photos on Twitter with victims of Thalidomide.

And also completely false information, made up, not even alternative facts. Just made up crap.

But let's wait and see what comes up as answers to your questions, as anti-vaxxers are out in force tonight on Mumsnet. just to reassure you

Thanks @QueenBlueberries. Not interested in any anti-vaxx crap, just looking for a genuine answer from someone who understands this as I’m struggling to find any research.

Also Thalidomide wasn’t a vaccine?! 🙄

I know, but it was all over twitter about a week ago. Seriously.

The reason why you are struggling to find any research is because vaccines don't have long term effects. Their effect is immediate, and in some cases temporary such as the flu vaccine. I thinkt he scientific community is baffled by claims of long term effects because there aren't any.

I think it's because a vaccine is generally a one-time event (yes, perhaps boosters or updated vaccines like the flu one) but individually, it's something that you get once and your body responds to it - compare that to medicines where you continue taking them, and they could possibly build-up in your body, or any effects caused by them could build up over time.

If something is only meant to be given to you once for it to have its effect, then any adverse effects should show up fairly quickly. There isn't really a mechanism for that to happen years later.

That doesn't mean that if there was an extremely adverse effect that caused some sort of issue for you, that the issue wouldn't be long-lasting itself. It is possible for adverse reactions to anything, and those effects could be long-standing.

But not really in terms of new adverse effects showing up a long time later, which is what I think people are worried about when they say that long-term effects are unknown.

In terms of the rare adverse effects, those aren't going to show up until a large number of people have been vaccinated - whether that takes months or years. It's the number of people that will show the effects, rather than the amount of time. So waiting to give the vaccine until a longer period of time has passed isn't really going to change anything; it might just postpone the time before someone has a rare reaction. And if a very large number of people have to be vaccinated before such an effect shows up, it means that the risk is very low - it only happens in however-many-million people.

That aspect of the testing is the same for all vaccines. Some of them take much longer to be developed, for all sorts of reasons (funding, approval, finding volunteers, variations in the prevalence of the disease, etc) but eventually, they all have to have enough people vaccinated for any adverse effects to show up. They will keep monitoring people and any reactions, as they do for all vaccines.

In contrast, the risks of long-covid are likely to be higher than the risk of any adverse effect. Those effects seem to be fairly long-lasting, too, at this point.

(As I understand it all; not claiming to be a vaccine specialist)

That what I’ve read but I’m struggling to understand why. Is it because the thing a vaccine does is trigger an immune response from our own bodies and once it’s done that it’s job is kind of over?! Clearly not a scientist here!

Thanks for explaining that so clearly @Thimbleberries

Well I think the good news is the Zoe COVID app are going to include qns about the vaccines (they answered my qn on the Mumsnet Q&A). FWIW I will happily give any vaccine a try, but it is good to know a third party hopes to gather evidence.

@SaveWaterDrinkGin

That what I’ve read but I’m struggling to understand why. Is it because the thing a vaccine does is trigger an immune response from our own bodies and once it’s done that it’s job is kind of over?! Clearly not a scientist here!

That's it, exactly.

If you are very unlucky you can have an allergic reaction to a vaccine - like you can to any food or medication. That allergic reaction could have a long term impact on you if you were really really unlucky. But the vaccine wouldn't do nothing and then suddenly have a long term effect on you later on, a long time after the vaccine.

The reason why you are struggling to find any research is because vaccines don't have long term effects

This is so so not true. Very concerning that you would believe this.

We can't know for definite if there are any long term side effects until a long time has passed.

Yes I believe that there are extremely few, statistically insignificant ‘long term’ side effects to vaccines, and all ‘long term’ side effects so-called studies have been disproved by a wide, very credible scientific community.

Vaccines don't have long term side effects. That's why you can't find any examples.

They enter your body, your immune system responds.

Job done. That's it.

No drama,no conspiracy theories. Really quite boring actually.

The only scientific explanation for a long term side effect I can think of is if a T cell or antibody primed by the vaccine cross reacted with normal tissue. HOWEVER that cross reactivity would happen whether it is with a vaccine or the viral infection so isn’t vaccine specific and again would probably happen rapidly not delayed and so would be seen in the trials. If you are worried about long term side effects you should also worry about the long term side effects of the virus. I don’t understand at all why people are worried about one but not the other.

Personally I’m much more worried about the known side effects of covid which wouldn’t happen with a vaccine

The likelihood of cross reactivity is extremely low by the way and would be driven by your genetics. I’m not saying it would happen, I’m just trying to give a possible answer to your question.

As previous posters have said vaccines don’t generally induce long term side effects

The only novel thing about any vaccine is the viral proteins. They are obviously also found with the parental viral infection so aren’t even novel to the vaccine.

@pontypridd I'd be really interested to see the long term side effects of vaccines you mention above.

I've obviously missed something. Please could you link to the research. I've studied biology to degree level so scientific papers are fine :)

www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy

“The UK Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) undertook a major study of 4- to 18-year-olds and found that around one in every 55,000 jabs led to narcolepsy.”

Obviously this is a very rare long term side effect.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/shaunlintern/these-nhs-staff-were-told-the-swine-flu-vaccine-was-safe

I'm really interested in the answer to this question too, just purely from an interest point of view. Am totally pro vaccines and think that the minimal and/or rare adverse effects of this vaccine are going to be much less risky than what we already know about covid infection, plus I take about a million other drugs for various reasons so have learnt to be quite chilled about side effects etc.

I already know about the long term effects of covid from personal experience so will be badgering everyone I know into getting the vaccine as soon as they are offered it. The explanation above is a good one about your body just dealing with it asap and makes sense as I guess that's the job of the vaccine!

Do you mean long term or a delayed reaction?

Narcolepsy wasn’t a long term side effect. It happened shortly after the vaccine (although it’s still not proven to be due to the vaccine. It was possibly also caused by the swine flu- linked to my points above about cross reactivity of antibodies to viral proteins with proteins in the brain.

As it was a rare side effect it only became apparent after more people were vaccinated.

The only thing I can think of is if the vaccine triggered an autoimmune condition somehow. With some autoimmune diseases, the autoimmune process can start years before the effects are actually noticed.

As previous posters have said though, I think that is only really a risk if the vaccine antigen is sufficiently similar to a protein in the body, causing a cross reaction to something other than the intended target in some people.

I don't know enough about the vaccine development process, but hopefully there are ways to ensure that the chosen antigens used in the vaccine are sufficiently different from molecules found in our bodies.

Yes I would imagine that they look at things like that during development

Realistically by the time most people are offered the vaccine any side effects will be well documented. I think a lot of people who don’t trust the vaccine actually done trust the government.

Is it because the thing a vaccine does is trigger an immune response from our own bodies and once it’s done that it’s job is kind of over?

Yes, that's why. The vaccine isn't really a medical intervention, it's just utilising your body's own response.

In terms of side effects (IANAD):

You can get allergies to some of the carrier for the vaccine. I think there was a vaccine which has egg protein in and obviously some people are allergic to that, so have to have an alternative version.

You can get very rare immune events (such as narcolepsy mentioned above). Often I think it's quite hard to tell whether these are actually caused by a vaccine, because they are so rare.

Very, very occasionally you'll get a wider immune system problem affecting lots of people. The last big one I can think of was in the US in the 70s. Modern protocols should mean it isn't possible anymore- this vaccine has been tested on a lot of people.

Coronaviruses produce quite a poor immune response and while the way this vaccine was made is new the actual sctive part of the vaccine shouldn't generate any effect other than the immune response. I'd be surprised if these vaccines have any proven side effects at all.

How can we tell you the long term side effects? It's only 9months old. No one knows the long term side effects