Christmas mixing and Tiers

[meow1989]

I know we are all just guessing at the moment, but ..

I get that its likely we are allowed to mix 3 households total over the 5 days, but doesn't that become moot if your area is tier 1? Because in tier 1 you can mix up to 6 households technically (one from each). Do you think they will have the forethought to clarify this ir will it be more interpreting the rules as you go? (Fwiw I will follow whatever the guidance is, I'm not looking for loophole just curious as to how this would work)

If you’re 2 households in s bubble already or if one is a single adult household you all count as one household

You then can meet with two other households but there is no limit on numbers

You then cannot meet any other family/friends even on another day

The exception to this is a child who has divorced parents so as they are already part of two bubbles

So in my case I live with my daughter and I am already in a bubble with my parents.
I have two siblings with spouses and children so we could all meet.
However this means that my siblings spouses cannot meet their family- it’s one or the other.

My DD can meet her dad who is in a bubble with his parents.

Just to add that if you have 2 or more siblings and neither any of you are in a bubble with your parents then only 2 sounds siblings and their spouses and kids can meet so you will have to choose

www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-a-christmas-bubble-with-friends-and-family/making-a-christmas-bubble-with-friends-and-family

I've just read through this. It does actually answer all questions asked in PP. Doesn't completely make sense logically but you can see the rules in black and white to know what is or isn't allowed once the tiers have been announced tomorrow.

I'm a single person household with 4 children. I have another single person household as my normal support bubble but we will not be seeing each other over Christmas as they will be seeing their family. I work for the NHS and will be on shift all through Christmas until 28th & I am then off for new year. I won't be able to see my parents who I haven't seen since March because I am working past the 'cutoff' date of 27th Dec. Why were those dates arbitrarily chosen?

My husband and I are both very frontline high risk workers. My mum is our childcare. Hubs has a son who stays with us weekly. We haven’t seen his mum, granny or brothers and their kids in months and looks like we won’t over Xmas as we’re already mixing 3 households. Given what we’re dealing with at work we’re just glad that we’re all still well and alive. It’s going to be a weird Christmas for everyone- I’m hoping next year will be better.

I agree, I guess they had to choose some dates as otherwise it js a free for all but the problem is that everyone will be travelling on the same day. I feel that my Christmas plans are pretty low risk but the biggest risk will be stopping at the services along the way. I won't be able to do it without a stop and it is going to be heaving!

I am really confused by the pp’s claiming to be in a support bubble with relatives when both parties in that bubble live with at least one other adult.
A bubble is one single adult household and one other household. So if you live with a partner, you can bubble with one grandparent who lives alone or another adult who lives alone. You can’t bubble with your parents plural if they live together they are not a single adult household.
They can provide childcare, but they are not part of your bubble. It’s strictly drop off, pick up and outside in a public place for contact with them. Even in tier 1 when that comes back.

@Xenia

So is this correct? My adult son lives alone and currently and all year has had no support bubble. He is allowed toform a support bubble with one other household. he could do that for Christmas day. Thjus he and the twins with whom I live including the one who is returning from university are counted as one for the Christmas lunch. My single living alone daughter can join us - she counts as number 2 (and, not relevant, is in a support bubble with her boyfriend who also lives alone and who is not coming for Christmas lunch) and my other daughter and her family who all live with her are household 3 and they can meet up.

Thus - I and the 5 adult children are within the 3 households for Christmas lunch? I think that is lawful and works and is three households not four.

We have the same mix of adult children but also my elderly MIL, who would otherwise be alone. I am not telling any of them they can't come here for Christmas dinner. MIL is adamant she wants to come.

@Xenia

So is this correct? My adult son lives alone and currently and all year has had no support bubble. He is allowed toform a support bubble with one other household. he could do that for Christmas day. Thjus he and the twins with whom I live including the one who is returning from university are counted as one for the Christmas lunch. My single living alone daughter can join us - she counts as number 2 (and, not relevant, is in a support bubble with her boyfriend who also lives alone and who is not coming for Christmas lunch) and my other daughter and her family who all live with her are household 3 and they can meet up.

Thus - I and the 5 adult children are within the 3 households for Christmas lunch? I think that is lawful and works and is three households not four.

That would be my understanding.

You and adult son living alone can count as a support bubble thus one household.
Students whose permenant address is living with their parents are still part of your household even if they live away during term time.

You then can legally have two more households which would allow all your children to lawfully attend christmas dinner with you. Provided your daughter does not see her boyfriend for 5 days.

@RedskyAtnight I can't have Boxing Day. My parents will be in a 3 household bubble already courtesy of SIL's unilateral decisions. They can't meet anyone else. But surely your parents can decide who they want to see, SIL can't force them to go to her can she?

It sounds I am okay (now I have realised my single adult son who lives alone and has no existing bubble can be in mine with his 2 brothers). As we will be 3 lawyers and 2 more law students none of the 5 of us wants to break the law not least because we could lose a career over it - duties to the courts etc and I don't pick and choose the laws I follow even if I don't like them. I just about never go over the speed limit even when driving which annoys my sons.

As for why they picked those days only I agree it is unfair on lots of people particularly those working eg my children's father has always worked over or at Christmas (organist, mid night mass, Christmas morning services etc so we often had a kind of delayed after Christmas christmas or if we were away would meet the relatives a few days later.

Also the Christmas lunch with no alcohol and probably a walk (although even a walk probably will incite police to break it up!!! as there may be 9 of us) and no kissing and our having been pretty careful all year is even objectively fairly risk free. Police were swarming across the car park leading into the woods across the road from my house the other day and a patrol car goes up the road every morning into our private road even and two nights recently very very low helicopters, perhaps from nearby Nato base, were flying round and road. It certainly feels like a police state at present.

I don't think anyone wants to but if the children went down to see their father and his wife who lives 5 minutes away and who has not seen most of them for a year including the grandchildren that probably breaks the law. I suspect they could go on a distanced walk with him - actually no as I presume London will be back into tier 2 I think it was and there will be numbers limits for walks outside? It is so complicated.

Police were swarming across the car park leading into the woods across the road from my house the other day and a patrol car goes up the road every morning into our private road even and two nights recently very very low helicopters, perhaps from nearby Nato base, were flying round and road. It certainly feels like a police state at present.

It obviously varies alot round the country, we went out for a drive then a walk along the beach yesterday and DH commented that he hadn't seen a police officer in weeks, possibly months. Granted we aren't out alot but we do go out and we live on a road with traffic.

Life seemed very normal, lots of parents with children having a run around and playing on the swings and roundabouts after school, dog walkers stopping to have chats, beach cafe open for takeaways and people having hot dogs/coffees etc, didn't see anyone brave enough for an icecream.

It was actually quite hard to imagine that we are in the middle of a pandemic.

I expect it varies and I am sure neighbours more often complain about not seeing police in normal times than too many. i think as we are a "dormitory suburb" for London instead of the usual most people are in inner London all day working loads are office workers now working from home more having their daily walk in the only woods and the nicest quiet roads so it is busier here where I live although so far none have invaded my garden. We also have police sirens a fair bit. It is very mixed bit of outer London. Anyway I support the police and man not a member of a political party who wants them defunded or anything like that so am not against them doing their jobs to try to control hoards of people wanting to get too close to each other in a car park or the woods.

[quote ancientgran]**@RedskyAtnight* I can't have Boxing Day. My parents will be in a 3 household bubble already courtesy of SIL's unilateral decisions. They can't meet anyone else.* But surely your parents can decide who they want to see, SIL can't force them to go to her can she?[/quote]
Of course she can't. But this is exactly the sort of thing that could cause family infighting, and would have been better if she'd discussed it first rather than making a decision unilaterally and just telling everyone that was what was happening. It, of course, is also a reflection on family dynamics. I'm still annoyed that after years of hosting large family meetups (I have another sibling as well), after DB and SIL had done it once, my parents referred to them as "always being the ones to host" and airbrushing my contributions out altogether. My other sibling also already considers that DB is the preferred child (despite my parents protesting this is not true) and is likely to call out the blatant favouritism and refuse to talk to anyone else in the family (well maybe they'll talk to me) for months.

Ironically, since we can all meet fewer people than usual, I think there is going to be more than the normal number of family fallouts this year.

My son said t was just huge crows there. There were 2 police cars in one of the carparks to the woods and another in the other and policemen in the woods too. Perhaps they just fancied a walk. It is probably easier to break up people meeting in bigger groups than 6 than running after criminals. My son said the woods had never been so crowded even with cars parked right down the road outside the car parks too.

So my next legal question is - we can eat on 25th - lunch. London will be in tier 2 so generally only 6 meet up outside (unless you ahve 10 living at home when I think they can walk outside but is so complex I am forgettting the rules).

I think your tier applies but with the xma exception. So the 11 of us can have the meal inside. Can we then leave the house e for an after lunch walk? or would we have to be walking separately as 6 and 5 rather than 11? Tier 2 were it not for Christmas is no more than 6 I think on a walk and also no one in the house - eg my sons' friends (which is fine by me - the fewer people in this house the the less cleaning).

i read it that its mixing with 2 other singular households, only. not different ones on different days. 2 only with you as the 3rd.altogether

I really don’t care, if we don’t mix at Christmas that will be the same as last Christmas and the ten before that, lockdown is everyday of your life when your disabled not just a few weeks, I’ve no idea what people are moaning about, live my life and they’d have more to moan about, I think I had a Christmas in the last millennium

Christmas bubble is in your house/place of worship etc. Outside is tier rules. So walking in two groups.

Yes 3 households in a bubble for 23-27th. Not 3 households per day.

@Bufferingkisses

Christmas bubble is in your house/place of worship etc. Outside is tier rules. So walking in two groups.

??? What??? I don’t think so.

Tier rules until 23rd. Christmas bubble rules until 27th. Tier rules from 28th.

How the hell has this got so complicated.

We're on tier 3 now 😭 Fingers crossed they take us out of it by Christmas otherwise we won't be able to see anyone, much less 3 households.

@AlwaysLatte Christmas is different. Tiers suspended 23-27th.

I'm reasonably sure tier rules stand except for your bubble the whole way through. So, you are allowed to travel to your bubble from a tier 3 to 1 for example - but you can't just travel from a 3 to a 1 because you fancy a night in a hotel, the rules still apply. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

@Alwayslatte you can have your Christmas bubble regardless of the tier.