What will cause greater harm to human life?

[Billie18]

What will cause greater harm to human life in the long term. Lockdowns or coronavirus?

@peasoup8 👌 so true!

The corruption in government is the biggest threat to all of us.

It's a fine balancing ,but people just not complying is really not helping ,I'm in the Northwest ,my son is nearly finished his second period of self isolation since September ,God knows how many more there will ,be ,there is these after thread on here about people saying they won't follow the rules it's depressing.

@Haplap

The corruption in government is the biggest threat to all of us.

Yes it is

What I struggle with around the whole narrative of saving the NHS from being overwhelmed, is the idea it wouldn't stay that way, or once broken it would be gone forever.

If we'd let covid run wild, how long realistically would it have taken the NHS out for? A month? 2 months? Once the peak had gone, once everyone had caught it and survived or died, wouldn't the NHS have then gone back to normal?

Obviously this route would have meant a lot of people dying of covid who would have survived if they had been able to access treatment, and those are the people we have lockdown down for.

But we are on 8 months of the NHS not working properly, expecting another 3-4 months of the same. Has this been a better or worse outcome for those who need to access the NHS for non-covid reasons?

We've done this now, we don't really know how bad it would have got.

We do know the mess lockdown has made to our economy and emotional wellbeing of non-covid sufferers, plus the education of our children.

I hate how many people who haven't suffered all that much from lockdown and have been in the group to benefit from it are happy to shout selfish at those who are suffering from it and not benefiting.

Mass graves and bodies building up in vans outside hospitals would be far more harmful to mh than any lockdown

@MargosKaftan, this is the crux of the argument though isn’t it, we’ll never really know what would have happened without intervention and that requires an element of trust.

I completely understand why people don’t trust what they’re hearing from our government but then I look globally and I can see that there is an overwhelming majority dealing with this is broadly similar ways.

Ultimately I can well believe that that the NHS would quickly collapse. Even before this there were accounts of people lying in corridors, ambulances taking hours for emergencies, people being caused serious harm and even death through neglect that occurred due to understaffing. I believe those kinds of stories would have increased to unbelievable levels

I posted too soon because I wanted to address this:

I hate how many people who haven't suffered all that much from lockdown and have been in the group to benefit from it are happy to shout selfish at those who are suffering from it and not benefiting

In all honesty how are you certain that the groups of people supporting restrictions and those who are largely unaffected or benefitting actually cross over to the extent you’re implying? Let’s face it you don’t and are making massive assumptions about peoples motives and stating that as fact. You’re discrediting yourself by making fantastical statements like that.

Lockdown. Without a single doubt whatsoever

@MoiJeJous

Let’s ask the people whose loved ones have died from Covid and whose lives will never be the same.

But we've all lost loved ones haven't we and our lives will never be the same either. What's special about COVID?

@MoiJeJous

Let’s ask the people whose loved ones have died from Covid and whose lives will never be the same.

Well seeing as you asked ,my answer is the same as it was upthread, lockdown. Being forced to grieve alone, without any social interaction, not being able to be with my extended family after mum died and all the other things people take for granted when it comes to comforting a grieving daughter makes a shit time worse, but thank you for asking.

Oh and having to listen to my DD sobbing her heart out over the phone because lock down meant she couldn't visit us so was left to grieve 100 miles away from the people she most wanted to be with.

Lockdown. From a purely personal perspective, I had covid, it was shit, but I was fine within a month.. and the majority of people have a milder illness than me.

The lockdown, however, has worn down my mental health to breaking point this year.

My grandad was hospitalised for 2 weeks, he's 80, and almost didn't make it. He says he wishes he hadn't, as he's spending his life alone without his grandkids.

Margoskaftan I see what you are saying but I don’t think that takes into account the trauma that would cause to the staff and the long term implications of that. I have a friend who works on the wards and is one of the loveliest and most capable people I know. Saw her before lockdown 2 and was deeply saddened by the change in her having gone through the first wave.

With regards to the original question whilst we have some restrictions in place it is a bit of a toss up which does more damage. I am really pissed off at the way things have been handled here and that we ended up in a second lockdown but that can’t be changed now and I do take comfort from the news of the vaccines that there will be an end to this on the horizon.

Covid.

Friend aged 32 died 4 months ago, leaving a wife, 2 year old child and an unborn baby.

Brother aged 45, had covid just before the 1st lockdown. Now has long covid. Unable to go back to work. Has 3 children.

Friend, aged 50. Has long covid. Can barely function. Now wearing adult nappies because she can't get to the toilet in time.

Friends sister died of covid on Thursday. 43 years old. Husband and children now left without a wife and mother.

It's all very well saying 'Lockdown'' if you haven't lost a close family member. And covid ISN'T just about people dying. Long covid looks as if it is going to be a life threatening condition.

IF the UK had done lockdown properly the first time, like China, Australia, New Zealand, we wouldn't be in this mess.

I know this is not really the point of the thread but I just wanted to add to the comments about 'just flu'. I got flu 2 years ago and nearly died. One positive outcome from all this mess might be that people stop thinking they're some sort of hero for coming into work when they have a virus and realise instead that it can be fatal for some people.

Re: the question, I think the lack of holistic data being shared is making it hard to say. How many people are we now losing to suicide and given the economic crisis now presenting how many we will lose in the future, for example. We are getting one-sided data and that's not really very helpful. I know we can see excess death data but the economic issues presenting could also be modelled in terms of the mortality and morbidity they will cause.

Absolutely lockdown, this is going to have massive affects on us, our kids, and future generations. It's not just about excess deaths, it's about suicides and suicide effects, domestic violence and people and their children being traumatised because of this, people's homes being repossessed and never being able to get back on the property ladder and never being able to help their kids do that, how being unemployed or underemployed can cause clinical depression, and so on. These lockdowns are destroying - and will continue to destroy - the lives of millions.

What are we going to do if there's another pandemic? We can't lockdown again because the costs are too high.

The furlough scheme alone.

No one is paying tax and the state is paying everyone's wages with not alot coming in.

What taxes are going to fund the NHS in years to come?

I dont agree with public money being spent propping up businesses that will fail as soon as furlough ends. What's the point ?!

And these attitudes are why some countries are back to normal and we are still half-heartedly battling the virus.

@southeastdweller this. I wonder how some people will cope when the next pandemic comes along and actually kills huge swathes of the populations regardless of age. Not just a small amount from younger generations as a lot of viruses do, we only hear about them because they are rare.

As for the not going to work with a virus, full blown flu would make you far too unwell to work anyway surely? Common cold though? If everyone went off for that hardly anyone would be at work or school! Especially when for the most part a common coke is not debilitating enough to stop you from going about your normal daily life

I’ve had pneumonia, serious enough that I was in HDU it took me a good couple of years to be able to do much of anything without being breathless, a lot viruses have the potential to have long after affects

@Joswis

And these attitudes are why some countries are back to normal and we are still half-heartedly battling the virus.

Which?

My Polish friend told me Poland closed their border

As soon as it opened they had a massive problem

Spain locked down harder and longer than us and it's back

Where is life normal? Other than AUS and NZ who had their citizens living in a police state effectively

@Newuser991 this is another of my concerns re taxes and where the money is going to come from the fund the nhs with all this unemployment here/coming. I’ll be surprised if the nhs is still the form we know it as once this is by with and privatisation will come in wholly in some form or other

As another poster asked how many saying lockdown is more harmful are following the ‘rules’, I would like to ask all those saying CV is more harmful, would you consider yourself more vulnerable if you caught it?

@SirFlouncealot

As another poster asked how many saying lockdown is more harmful are following the ‘rules’, I would like to ask all those saying CV is more harmful, would you consider yourself more vulnerable if you caught it?

I dont have any kids so no contact with anyone who is mixing with 30 other households.

I have been wfh largely since March. I go to the office 1-2 times a week for work I cant do at home. The public transport is empty.

I met a friend yesterday outside for a socially distanced walk and coffee.

I didnt see my family for months

I think I have had covid already but at a time when they weren't testing and so there is no way to know

So in answer...yes jog on.

I still think lockdown is more harmful.

Lockdown - people are suffering immeasurably and the true death toll of this won't be from covid.