Genuine question for anti-lockdowners

[LucyLocketsPocket]

What do you think the government's motive for lockdown is?

To protect the NHS or something else?

I would add to all the reasons give around fear and panic, media hype and general hysteria that I am also very concerned about the decimation of civil liberties that has occurred, much of which has very flaky legal grounding

This talk by Lord Sumption is a forensic analysis of the legal standing of many of the laws that have been used to fundamentally change our way of life (and law) from coronavirus. It is well worth an objective view and you can make your own mind up if you are comfortable with the road on which we are travelling

The NHS is overwhelmed every year and no one takes the blindest bit of notice. They regularly issue alerts to say their care is compromised, they have no beds etc and again no one gives a fuck. I find it galling really that people are no so terribly concerned about the NHS being overwhelmed. Where was that concern any other year? It seems to me the concern is there because people have finally noticed that an overwhelmed NHS might mean that they or their family doesn't get good care. That's always been the case but most people could safely ignore it in the past. Now that the message has been put out that a 'deadly' virus might get you at any moment, people are panicking and demanding that the world be shut down to prevent a theoretical risk that more than likely will never happen. It's fucking stupid.

@TheDailyCarbuncle most of my family work in the NHS so no I’ve not ignored it in the past . What have I done? Tried not to add to the burden myself and not voted for the fucking Tories. What else am I supposed to do? I know the NHS is fucked and I’m furious about it but while dickheads continue to prioritise their tax cuts over public services then we are where we are.

[quote TheRuleofStix]@TheDailyCarbuncle most of my family work in the NHS so no I’ve not ignored it in the past . What have I done? Tried not to add to the burden myself and not voted for the fucking Tories. What else am I supposed to do? I know the NHS is fucked and I’m furious about it but while dickheads continue to prioritise their tax cuts over public services then we are where we are.[/quote]
I'm talking about people who act like this is a new thing, like they never even saw before that this happens all the time. It just makes them look like ignorant dickheads IMO.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

The NHS is overwhelmed every year and no one takes the blindest bit of notice. They regularly issue alerts to say their care is compromised, they have no beds etc and again no one gives a fuck. I find it galling really that people are no so terribly concerned about the NHS being overwhelmed. Where was that concern any other year? It seems to me the concern is there because people have finally noticed that an overwhelmed NHS might mean that they or their family doesn't get good care. That's always been the case but most people could safely ignore it in the past. Now that the message has been put out that a 'deadly' virus might get you at any moment, people are panicking and demanding that the world be shut down to prevent a theoretical risk that more than likely will never happen. It's fucking stupid.

This.

It's all very well criticising the Tories but Labour have not served us well during this period either.

Kier Starmer has not provided any scrutiny to the measures. Instead, and amazingly, the scrutiny is coming from Tory MPs - people like Graham Brady who are demanding Impact Reports for the lockdown. Theresa May abstaining from voting on the lockdown! Whereas Labour have not done their job. Absolutely no scrutiny of the evidence for lockdown. Nothing.

@TheDailyCarbuncle I would imagine they’re the same ignorant dickheads who genuinely believe that Johnson and his millionaire cronies give one tiny shadow of a shite about preserving the NHS and scream “fake news” when you point out to them that it’s already slowly being broken up and privatised.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

The NHS is overwhelmed every year and no one takes the blindest bit of notice. They regularly issue alerts to say their care is compromised, they have no beds etc and again no one gives a fuck. I find it galling really that people are no so terribly concerned about the NHS being overwhelmed. Where was that concern any other year? It seems to me the concern is there because people have finally noticed that an overwhelmed NHS might mean that they or their family doesn't get good care. That's always been the case but most people could safely ignore it in the past. Now that the message has been put out that a 'deadly' virus might get you at any moment, people are panicking and demanding that the world be shut down to prevent a theoretical risk that more than likely will never happen. It's fucking stupid.

Yep. It’s funny how the head of the NHS doesn’t show a graph that tells us current impatient volumes compared to previous years isn’t it. Instead he rolls out a graph that shows 11k of inpatients, which is deliberately designed to scare people when I bet that’s actually normal at this time of year. Let us see how busy hospitals are compared to last year. If not, why.

Because lockdown benefits the minority not the majority or tax payers of the future.

I am not anti lockdown.

All I can say is from friend's social media some have mentioned that the government want to control us. That we are sheep. That they want to have a wealth shake up - not sure what that means.

However, having seen the story on the BBC news of the 3 people that have died from the same family I am incredibly sad that some people just won't do their bit to help reduce the spread.

Because it’s important to get the economic catastrophe in before Brexit, to maximise opportunities for shifting blame.

[quote TheRuleofStix]@TheDailyCarbuncle I would imagine they’re the same ignorant dickheads who genuinely believe that Johnson and his millionaire cronies give one tiny shadow of a shite about preserving the NHS and scream “fake news” when you point out to them that it’s already slowly being broken up and privatised. [/quote]
I am starting to think it is an own goal for the NHS.

What this has demonstrated is their absolute inability to cope, made it blindingly obvious that the system is pretty broken and totally inefficient.

The inefficiency of the NHS is appalling. Awful. Shameful. And I can't help but think that privatization may actually be a better solution to the ever increasing demands of our population (sickest on record)

This was only last year.. a child with pneumonia having to lie on the floor as no beds were available.

Imagine if all the money being thrown into lockdown, failed track and trace and a new set of furlough had been diverted to sorting out the NHS - for example recruiting and/or training up extra staff to run the Nightingales that cost millions to set up but are virtually unusable

I agree with what's being said re NHS/Tory Cunts, I'm in Liverpool ohr main hospital isn't fit for purpose, but why do you think that Countries were that doesn't apply are locking down?

Even the Netherlands, around Amsterdam etc who are massive on civil liberties are bringing in restrictions.

On my FB I have people from around the world. I have relatives across Africa, the US, NZ, AUS and a few in France. Friends in Turkey and Greece and I think we've got to start looking globally and not just within our own country.

The Congo, for example, has done really well because they are used to disease control measures. It's the immediate full take up of hygiene measures that has done it. Meanwhile large numbers of the UK and US are rejecting the same hygiene measures and restrictions.

In India they beat people with sticks who didn't have good reasons to be out. Was it brave or abusive for governments to take harsh decisions and did those that didn't fail, as are being accused?

@ponoka7

The situation with the brand new hospital in Liverpool just sitting there empty is a national disgrace and almost certainly contributed to the early high and severe levels of restrictions that came in there.

In short, I think it's led by binary politics, media, attempted populism, short-termism. Covid being new, governments were understandably clueless as to how to deal with it. Add to that the mass hysteria fuelled by social media and the mainstream press trying to keep up with SM to stay relevant; then the fact that in the global North we are very removed from illness and death, so suddenly being given statistics all day and every day about people dying is frightening, especially when many struggle with maths and science. Then add to the pot that governments know that people have very short memories, so it is understandable that they would decide to try to cut down Covid deaths, because those are 'now' and all over the media - other deaths aren't. And to top it all, everything is binary so Trump and Bolsonaro being anti-lockdown meant it would be very difficult to discuss lockdown without being seen to be a right wing libertarian nut job.
All these things are probably true of many countries, but it is particularly difficult in some ways in the UK because Johnson is lazy and wants to be liked and so is flim-flamming around cluelessly. In addition of course, there are some plus points for some in destroying the economy: many a Tory would very much like the NHS to fail, to pare back the welfare state; even perhaps start looking at universal state education. Covid has thrown up possibilities that were almost unthinkable.
A perfect storm.

@cassgate

Agree that this is about underfunding and mismanagement of the nhs over decades. Also the appalling data which is being presented. The current hospital data for example, 11,000 people in hospital with COVID. Yes but how many of those were actually admitted for treatment as a result of the symptoms, how many are hospital aquired and how many are people who have been admitted for some other reason who just happen to have tested positive on admission. Context is everything when interpreting the numbers.

Also how many of those 11,000 are asymptomatic?

I know Colchester hospital said that they have 75 covid patients at the moment, but half of them are asymptomatic and were taken to hospital for other conditions - only discovering that they had covid when did the test as standard.

I know Colchester hospital said that they have 75 covid patients at the moment, but half of them are asymptomatic and were taken to hospital for other conditions - only discovering that they had covid when did the test as standard.

This is the most ridiculous thing about the whole situation. A person can go into hospital for a hip replacement, catch covid while they're there and feel absolutely fine and they're put down as a 'covid patient.' That person would be in hospital anyway and won't die of covid, so what's the point counting them? Surely you count only people who have come into hospital for covid/people who are actively being treated for covid?

@TheDailyCarbuncle

I know Colchester hospital said that they have 75 covid patients at the moment, but half of them are asymptomatic and were taken to hospital for other conditions - only discovering that they had covid when did the test as standard.

This is the most ridiculous thing about the whole situation. A person can go into hospital for a hip replacement, catch covid while they're there and feel absolutely fine and they're put down as a 'covid patient.' That person would be in hospital anyway and won't die of covid, so what's the point counting them? Surely you count only people who have come into hospital for covid/people who are actively being treated for covid?

exactly. I would also say that it could impact death figures as well.

I know much has already been said about dying with or from covid - but how many people have died and it was classed as a covid death because of a positive test but they were actually asymptomatic? I don't think there's any possibility of finding that out, but it's another differentiation isn't it

Yes definitely @Fredocorleone - and equally a very seriously ill person is likely to die from any virus, even a cold. Recording their death as being from covid is misleading, in the sense that it isn't really covid that killed them it is their overall ill-health, which made them extremely vulnerable. It's worth recording the fact that they had covid, as hospital transmission is a real problem, but recording their death as being caused by covid isn't accurate if any minor illness was a threat.

A high proportion of cases in hospitals are ACQUIRED in hospitals.

This is hugely important - people are not actually admitted for Covid, it's an extra gift for them.

I cba looking up the exact number but off the top of my head it was somewhere around 35% of hospital cases were acquired in hospital

Again I need to repeat - people are being paid to run down the NHS. Mumsnet is an easy target for such people.

I wouldnt vote for the stories at the last election because they wouldnt protect the NHS. I contacted my MP to tell him that - and that I would donate money to the Labour Party. Now they are a viable opposition I may join them, I will certainly donate to their next election campaign.

Covid complicates other care and with the woefully inadequate PPE staff have and the occasional false negative test for patients transmission is sometimes going to happen in hospitals. Over worked staff also make mistakes.

The NHS has been underfunded by the stories for year. People voted to pare the NHS to the bone, now we pay the price. Itis not inefficient, it delivers far more than we pay for. The inefficiency is the privatised track and trace run by the story chum with a track record of failure.

@hamstersarse

The hospital may well be ready, but do they have staff? That is pretty key!

I think there was panorama documentary about this hospital a while ago, they kept ploughing money into it and timelines kept being stretched and it wasn’t even structurally sound.

Another disaster and money down the drain was a hospital in Jersey where they had to change the site or something.

What exactly is going on?

I am not being paid by anyone.

Whilst I am less than happy to lock down again I am incandescent that I am licking down for the sake of the NHS when much of it did not lockout when cases were very low over the summer.

DD's ADHD unit remains shut. No two hour time slits for reviews; no office presence - just an answer machine saying the office is shut, patients asked tube sign themselves and take their blow pressure (many presumably F2F at a pharmacy- but that is safer than their clinician doing it ). Can't update the website; can't divert the phones. The office staff and service managers have been "wfh" since March. Yet retail workers, teachers, etc, can all go to work. Why can't all NHS staff be at work if the rest of society has locked down for the sake of the NHS.

I accept the front line have been amazing. The rest of it needs a wake up call.

Weigh themselves and take their own blood pressure?